Ep 387: Therapy and Asexuality feat. Ashley Koch
SARAH: Hey, what's up? Hello! Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl (I'm Sarah, that's me.)
KAYLA: And a bi demisexual girl (that's me, Kayla.)
ASH: And an ace, aegro, and aple individual, that's me, Ash, a counseling graduate.
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything we just… anything… I always fuck this up when we have guests because I'm overthinking. What's the goddamn intro?
KAYLA: You just got to let it out, I don't know.
ASH: Stop thinking about it.
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand.
KAYLA: On today's episode: Asexuality in Therapy.
ALL: Sounds fake, but okay.
SARAH: Welcome back to the poooood!
KAYLA: Hello!
SARAH: Hello, everyone. I don't think we have any housekeeping…
KAYLA: I don’t think so.
SARAH: And as we teased in the last episode, we have a guest.
KAYLA: Yaaaaaaay!
SARAH: So, we're going to do what we do with the guest and just dive in so we don't embarrass ourselves off the top
KAYLA: Waste everyone's time just screaming. But also, this guest said that they've listened for many years, so I feel like maybe it's okay if we're… if it's stinky, but anyway.
SARAH: So, with that, hi Ash.
ASH: Hey! How is it going?
KAYLA: Yaaaaaay!
SARAH: Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and why you're here?
ASH: I am Ash. I am a recent counseling graduate with a Master's of Arts in Counseling…
KAYLA: Yaaaay!
ASH: With Expressive Arts Therapy. That's what I went for, it's really niche, but really cool. I'm also an ace, aegro, and aple individual, a variety on the spectrum, and I figured I'd talk about asexuality in the counseling field because we need more of that in our fields.
SARAH: Yes, definitely. You reached out to us and we were like, yes!
KAYLA: Yes!
SARAH: And then we took five years to email you.
KAYLA: Five years!
ASH: Good. Good. Good.
SARAH: But we finally made it happen.
ASH: I have an abundance of patience right now, so.
SARAH: All right. Kayla, you start us off. Kayla has a psych degree. So, Kayla knows a little bit more about this than I do. I'm just like, he he, I have a degree in the movies.
KAYLA: Yeah, you said that earlier, and I was like, I haven't used my psych degree really since I got it, so like…
SARAH: I took psych in high school.
ASH: That does count.
SARAH: But I'm just saying you have a little more experience than I do, in any case.
KAYLA: No, that's fair. Yeah, we were… I think, especially excited to talk about this because, I mean, we are both aspec people that have done therapy. And also, I feel like we get so many comments from people or emails from people talking about either really good or often really bad experiences they've had with therapists and counselors having to do with their sexuality. And I've even had a variance in my experience of therapists who are actually really educated in it and it's always like a wonderful surprise. And then therapists that are like, what the fuck are you talking about? So yeah, obviously something that affects a lot of people and needs to be dug into. So yeah, very excited to talk about it.
ASH: Yeah. And there's just like a lack of education in the general studies of, hey, we need to talk about the LGBTQ community. And I'm like, it needs to be a general course because I've had questions about it. And they're all like, no, you're good, it's all a part of culture. And I'm like, no, it's not, it's more than culture. So, can we talk about this more?
KAYLA: Yeah. So, is there not any, like in getting educated as a therapist, are there classes that you could elect to take about queer things, but it's not like mandatory?
ASH: Yes. I know within my specific university we had an elective that I really wanted to take, but I couldn't because my advisor was all like, focus on getting your concentration out there and then you can come back and do continued education once you get your masters. But other than that, it's like very, very brief, like one sentence in our culture class. And I'm like, we need to talk about this more because I'm going to have clients who are all like, I feel gay, I may be ace, I may be this or that. And I'm like, okay, let me go research and come back, I never had the experience or education of the LGBTQ community apart from my own experience. I kind of can't do that to my client because it's countertransference.
SARAH: Yeah, it's so interesting to me that you had one option and your advisor advised against you taking it, which is, I mean, I do understand focusing on your concentration and getting it done and then you can come back and do further education later. But I feel like that's kind of fundamental.
ASH: It is fundamental.
SARAH: Any new therapist or old therapist, they should all have it.
ASH: Exactly, exactly. And with my concentration, it's a brand-new study whereas LGBT has been here for the long run and I'm like, we need more on that before we get into others. But then again, new therapy put people into this, so it's more accessible to others.
KAYLA: Yeah, it makes me really curious, because I feel like every time I've gone to look for a therapist, you like can search by their specialty and so many people do have queer clients as a specialty. But at that point, is that just all people going back and doing continued education? It feels like they're... I mean, which is good that there's a lot of education required to be a therapist, I would hope people that are therapists are studying up and putting the time in. But it seems like you really have to work hard to really concentrate on one type of specific thing.
ASH: Yeah, we have continued education, each state has a certain requirement of continued education to be met at the end of the year or when your license renews; yes, licenses do renew. And it could be a variety of things, but sometimes you just got to dive into what you need to know for your clients. On top of additional information, you need to figure out to help with the treatment plans, it’s so wild.
SARAH: Backing up a little bit, can I ask you, like, when did you become interested in wanting to do this as a career? And how does that parallel or not parallel your coming into your own identity? Like, were they at the same time? Were they completely separate? Were they connected? Like, what was your journey there?
ASH: Wow, great question, I love telling the story. So, when I first went to get into counseling, it's because I never got counseling as a kid. What happened was when I was in fifth grade, I experienced a natural disaster via the Joplin tornado, I was there when it happened and witnessed all of the changes occur. And I witnessed no one getting therapy for it, especially the kids and adolescents. So, in seventh grade, I'm just sitting in the warehouse and I'm like, art therapy, boom, that's what I want to do for the rest of my life, and it expanded ever since. So, I've been on this decades-long journey for a decade of becoming a counselor. And then in my undergrad, that's when I actually figured out I was also ace because I had no interest in people, I had no interest in doing it. And I recognized patterns and signs as I was growing up. And then later on, probably like last year, I realized I was also aegoromantic, I want other people to have romance, not me, but I'm all for it. And then the Alpa, Aple, whatever you call it, I actually experienced through one of your episodes a while back. And I'm all like, I'm going to do more research on that once I pass my NCE, I can't do research right now on top of study.
SARAH: Priorities.
KAYLA: The other research you're already doing, yeah.
ASH: Yeah, so. But yeah, it has been a decades-long process, and bit by bit, things have been added on. And I'm all like, oh, I could be even more beneficial for these people and those people and everybody else if I have more experience.
SARAH: Yeah, that's exciting, that our podcast did anything at all.
KAYLA: I know, Imagine doing anything, that is very exciting.
ASH: And I honestly recommend this podcast to a lot of individuals, and I'm like, it's silly, but serious. Like silly, serious, just listen.
KAYLA: Yeah.
ASH: I mean, you haven't heard the episode that's coming out tomorrow yet, but it's a real silly one, so.
KAYLA: Not quite serious.
SARAH: I don't know that that one is the recommended one, but you know, it's fine.
KAYLA: You got to do some silly ones.
ASH: I need to get everything in strides and then I'm like, give me, give me, give me, I’m ready.
SARAH: Yeah, it's good to just have any aspecness out there, even if it's very silly and absurd.
ASH: Yeah, we're in too much seriousness right now…
KAYLA: I know
ASH: And I'm like, I need a little silliness here.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Absolutely.
KAYLA: At this point, it's like, wait, I just simply can't be serious.
ASH: Mm-hmm
[00:10:00]
KAYLA: So, in, I guess, either in school or in any experience you've had with counselors and therapists, what has the like discussion or experience been around asexuality? Like, did it come up in any… well, probably it didn't come up in any classes because anything barely came up, but like in any like sessions you've had with counselors or like, you know, any work you've done, like what is the experience there?
ASH: Yeah. I know in one of my classes, in my Master's program, nothing anywhere else, I actually brought up, hey, I'm asexual, I don't have experience in sex, I need to know more information because sex is such a big issue for people, especially in relationships. And I'm like, can I have more please? And they're all like, no, let's make aphobic jokes about it. And I’m like…
SARAH: Cool.
ASH: Can I go forward? And I did have to escalate it to report a few people, so, not fun.
SARAH: Yikes!
ASH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Yikes!
ASH: Yeah. And I'm like, are you sure you're in the right place if you want to be a counselor, but also being very aphobic or homophobic or that you’re like this in a way.
SARAH: Yeah, if you want to help people, you have to be open to helping all types of people.
ASH: Yeah.
SARAH: Also, it's so crazy to me that… like you're in a position that's probably a little bit more rare, where it's like, I need to understand sex better, like, because I don't have the personal experience. But like, I would think that that would be kind of… not easy for them to do, but like straightforward, where it's like, okay, you know, here are things that we often see people have issues with. Like, here are the things that you need to most understand, because they all supposedly understand it so well.
ASH: Yeah.
SARAH: It's also, I think, the implication that everyone just knows and understands and has experience with sex in the exact same way. And it's like, even if, you know, there are two people in your class who both do have extensive personal experience with sex, it's not going to necessarily look the same.
ASH: Yeah.
SARAH: And so, if you're dealing with a client who has had a very different experience with sex than you have, you can't assume that your experience is going to parallel theirs and that they need to be… that they would or should have the same relationship with sex that you do.
ASH: Yeah.
SARAH: So, that's wild to me, that they're… I mean, not surprising entirely, but just still just wild, that they were like, what do you… No!
KAYLA: No!
ASH: Yeah. And like I brought up questions of, can I refer them to a sex therapist, which, yes, that's a thing, that I know someone else who is more versed in sex therapy than I am, and I can't refer my client out to go see them, because that would be client abandonment. And I'm all like, that's an ethical issue, because I can't abandon them if I don't know something very specific.
SARAH: Huh!
KAYLA: You're not allowed to refer someone to like another counselor?
ASH: You can under very certain circumstances, let’s say that…
KAYLA: That's crazy.
ASH: Like, if me and my client haven’t met our goals, like, they still have an issue with like sex, for example, I still can't abandon them, but I'm all like, I reached my area of competency, I want to make sure you get the best fit. It's always about the client first and not me. So, I'm going to do everything in my power to get all the resources and information for my client, but it's a two-way street.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Yeah.
ASH: I can refer someone to you, but if you want to stay with me, okay.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Right.
ASH: I reached… I'm right here. Here I am.
KAYLA: Here I am.
ASH: So.
KAYLA: Yeah.
ASH: Yeah. Then there's a lot of ethical codes and whatnot in it, so.
KAYLA: I suppose that makes sense.
ASH: Yeah.
SARAH: On one hand, I think… and that’s great thing.
KAYLA: Yeah. Probably good at most circumstances, but yeah, I could see how…
SARAH: It is shocking to me that like, if you say, I don't have the skills or the competency to deal with this, here is what I recommend you do, but you're not allowed to do that, that’s crazy.
ASH: Yeah. It's tricky on the counselor’s side, but on the client side, but I like you, we were great, what do you mean you don't know this, this, and this. And I'm like, I wasn't trained on it, I can do research, I can help work with you as I'm learning this. But if you want to meet your goals in therapy, I may have to refer you out to make sure you meet those goals. And I know you don't want to see another therapist, we work well together, it's just… it's a give and take.
SARAH: Yeah. Like, if you're willing to go with me as I learn at the same time, then okay. But if you want someone who has experience in this, then you're going to have to go to someone else.
ASH: Yeah. And that's just reaching one area of competency. But say like, it's a culture thing or a race thing, it's something else, so.
KAYLA: So, something that I know I thought a lot about when I was studying psych in college and was like coming into asexuality. And then I think something that we hear from people who struggle with therapists and psychiatrists as aspec people is asexuality being defined by doctors or therapists as like some kind of disorder. Or like, I know we've talked on the show a little bit about like hypoactive sexual desire disorder or like, I was just doing some research the other day into like post SSRI sexual dysfunction, which was a new thing I learned about, which is scary since I've been on SSRIs for my entire life. But anyway, that's my personal journey. So, I'm just curious about your thoughts on that kind of view of asexuality or like a low libido or a low sex drive from that kind of like clinical perspective and how you deal with it versus a disorder versus an identity.
ASH: Yes. So, an identity, it's what we identify as; you, me, Kayla, Sarah, it's what we identify with. But clinically in the DSM-5-TR, I have to say it all because… I struggle with the APA, so. There are two specific disorders; the female sexual interest arousal disorder and the male hypoactive sexual desire disorder. In clinical terms, that's basically asexuality and making it very simple for the people. So, anything that's defined as asexuality put in clinical terms and it's in the DSM-5-TR. But there's like two specific lines, one in each that say, I'm reading this here because I haven't pulled up; if a lifelong sexual desire is better explained by one's self-identification as asexual than a diagnosis of the male or female interest arousal disorder would not be made. So, the key difference between the two is the significant distress. So, if my sexuality is really distressing to me, I can be clinically diagnosed with female sexual interest arousal disorder and vice versa for a man. But if it's not distressing, then it's asexuality.
SARAH: So, here's a question. Say you identify as a gay man and you were raised in a very religious environment, if you accept that you are gay, but still feel very distressed by it, like you feel like it has a negative impact on your mental well-being because of the environment that you grew up in, would that be… like, if we were to switch that over to someone who was ace, would that be like, okay, then you are… we will give you the official diagnostic. Like, I guess, does this diagnostic only refer to aspec people or is there a broader expansion into other queer identities? Because I think the thing that to me feels very dangerous is if you are that gay man and you accept that you are gay, but you feel distressed about it, like is being gay some sort of like…
ASH: Disorder?
SARAH: Dysfunction? Yeah.
KAYLA: It used to be in the DSM, one of the versions, I think.
ASH: Yes, it used to be in the DSM, but with much… it was either in one, two or three. But after much, much research and clinical trials and having therapists actually work with gay men, they took it out of the DSM because it was harming people. And flip it to the asexual side, if this disorder is harming people, then we have to do a lot more research to take it out of the DSM. I've actually looked into this, the next time that the DSM will update, which is always like five, not five, 10 to 15 years, the DSM-5-TR was published in 2022.
[00:20:00]
ASH: So, in the next couple of years, into 2023, that's when the DSM will publish to the DSM-6. So now is the time to be actively advocating saying, hey, this disorder shouldn't be in here because it's actually asexuality and it may be harming people because of insurance or something else, because insurance is looking for this disorder so they can pay the therapist or counselor or… all the clinical names for therapy.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: So, in your mind, should these disorders, do you think, be just removed from the next version of the DSM or is there a way to make them more separate from asexuality?
SARAH: Like, is there a difference between gayness and asexuality in that sense?
ASH: No, no.
KAYLA: Well, because here's what, like playing devil's advocate, here's what I think about, because I think like people's libido being affected is a real thing. A real known side effect of a lot of anti-depressants is your libido goes down, there are real things that could happen chemically within the body that change that. And libido is separate from asexuality, asexuality is about the attraction, you can still have a high libido and be asexual, obviously. So, I'm curious about how do you then separate those clinically from like this is a real chemical thing happening in the body to some people where they really aren't asexual, they really don't identify that way, they really truly feel like this is a medical side effect or something. And then there's people who are like, no, this is my identity. How do they both exist at once without harming each other?
ASH: We've actually covered this, we as in the APA, ACA, all that, with looking… I'm looking in the DSM-5, other people can look into this too, but with the differential diagnoses directly under the disorders, it covers non-sexual mental disorders, substance medication use, other sexual dysfunctions, so on and so forth, so, we actually cover a good chunk of it.
KAYLA: Okay, work.
ASH: Because we know we can diagnose you with this: but are you on medication? Do you have other mental disorders? What's going on that is causing this dysfunction? We cover it all instead of focusing on one singular thing.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: How do you feel about the word dysfunction as it pertains to asexuality in this case? Because I keep hearing you saying it, which obviously like it's the name of something, but it also does imply that there is a normal and that that normal is correct and that if you vary from that normal it's a dysfunction, there's something wrong with you. I'm just curious about your take on that.
ASH: My take on it? It depends on the person. For me specifically, I've got to figure out your baseline before I can actually figure if this is positively or negatively affecting you, whereas if I don't have that baseline and I see all this is going up and down, I'm like, wait, wait, hold on, is this your normal or are you experiencing something else?
SARAH: Yeah.
ASH: If I don't have that baseline, I can't make a good judgment call.
SARAH: Right. So, you're thinking of it more as like, ‘dysfunction’ based off of whatever the individual person's baseline is.
KAYLA: On the individual level, yeah.
ASH: Yeah.
KAYLA: See, to me, the thing I worry about and I think what we've heard from listeners is obviously you are a good faith therapist. Like, you are educated in this, you have personal experience, so you're not going to misdiagnose someone with a sexual disorder if you think they're asexual, whatever.
ASH: No.
KAYLA: But there are so many people out there who aren't educated and I can just imagine someone going to a therapist and being like, I really don't have an interest in sex, like all this is happening. And then instead of the therapist going through like you said and really going like, okay, are you on medication? Is there another mental disorder going on? They just automatically go to like, oh, something is wrong with you, they don't even think of asexuality as an option. To me, that's what feels very dangerous, is people not doing what you're saying, which is like, okay, let's look at it on the individual level, not the societal level and actually figure it out. Because I think a lot of people just hear like, oh, I don't like having sex and they're like immediately like, oh, something is wrong.
ASH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Instead of actually like looking into the individual and being like, okay, what's going on here?
ASH: Yeah, definitely. I know specifically within the first session, we get all of your information, where you live, your history, any medications you've been on, we get it all. And then at the very end… close to the end, not the very end, we get the goals of therapy; what do you want to work on in here? And it could be anything. And if they're all like, I don't know if I'm ace or not, I want to figure that out. But again, I'm like, me, the client, I don't… I really don't know, I think there's something wrong with me, I just want to figure this out. So as the clinician or as a counselor, okay, it sounds like that you want to figure out your sexual identity, whether that is ace or something else. And we can work on that next time towards the end, because we're trying to get a clear definition of what they want to work on in therapy. I do remember having one client, in the middle of session randomly, I'm ace, I'm fine, I'm okay with it. Perfect. If you want to explore that later, bring it up again. But they were fine with it, so.
SARAH: Yeah, I just… I worry so much... And again, I don't want this to seem like I'm like, well, you guys, like, no, I know you're obviously a good faith actor here.
ASH: I got you. I got you.
SARAH: I just… I worry so much about, you know, if someone comes in worried about their lack of sexual interest or lack of sexual attraction, if they themselves don't already know about the aspec umbrella, and the therapist or counselor also does not know about the aspec umbrella, they're probably just going to be like, oh, you have this dysfunction. And so, it all comes back to educating like these professionals. And that's also why it's so unhinged to me that like the… even just a queer class, just about queer issues, and there are so many different queer experiences under the umbrella. The experience of a trans person is going to be very different than a cis aspec person.
ASH: Mm-hmm
SARAH: So, it's just so… I don't want to say it's like… what's the word? I can't think of the word. A shocker, a shocker that I can't think of the word.
KAYLA: Not you!
SARAH: Not me not being able to think of a word. I don't want to say that it's like irresponsible, but it kind of is.
ASH: Yeah.
KAYLA: I mean, you even just think about like the Trevor Project numbers on how mentally ill queer people are, like, which is obviously for a variety of reasons, and I think the biggest reason is that society is mean to us. And if it wasn't so mean, I don't think we'd be so mentally ill all the time.
ASH: Yeah.
KAYLA: But like, you look at those numbers and it's like, okay, well, how are we not having like 50,000 classes on this? Because obviously, these are the people that need the most help right now. So, what are we doing?
ASH: Yeah. I like 100 percent agree with you because I've been asking these questions probably since my undergrad. And I'm like, where are these classes? Where should I take them? I need to know this and… I'm just getting started, so.
KAYLA: Yeah. I mean, it just really… it's frustrating how much responsibility is put on the individual student and the individual counselor to do that for themselves. Like, you can't fully trust the education you're getting, you have to like go out and do your own shit, which is just like… obviously, again, like everyone should always be doing anyway, but it's just like, I don't… I would like to trust my institution a little bit.
ASH: Yeah.
SARAH: It also just makes me think of like the political orientation of someone who is a therapist. You know, if they because of political belief or because of religious belief or whatever, don't think that being queer is okay, then… I don't want to say like, oh, people who are conservative can't be therapists. But also, it's like I do think there needs to be a certain level of acceptance that people with certain religious beliefs or certain ideologies may not have and so… I don't even… there's not a question there, it's just me being like, huh.
ASH: I got you. I hear it, I hear it, and I'm going to reply with, it's not about us, the counselor, it's about you, the client. It doesn't matter what my political belief is, what my sexuality is, what my religion is, because I know that's not going to help you with what you are currently experiencing. So, if you want to talk about X, Y and Z is happening in politics, I'm going to sit there and validate what you are feeling or trying to figure stuff out.
[00:30:00]
ASH: And I'm going to be here helping you figure that out along the way, but also giving you the resources and education and skills and techniques that you specifically need to help you move along.
SARAH: You're a better person than me, I would be such a bad therapist.
KAYLA: You'd be like, but what if instead you…
SARAH: But what if you're wrong and are the problem?
ASH: If I am wrong and I am the problem and you do not want to see my gorgeous face again, then I can help you find a new therapist or you can like terminate right then and there and you never have to see me again. But that's not okay to do because then next time you go seek therapy, you'll have this like grudge against the therapist because of me. And I'm like… I’m trying…
SARAH: Yeah. Again, Ash, you're a better person than me.
ASH: I've been taught this stuff.
SARAH: Yeah. How would you… what would your recommendation be for aspecs or just queer people in general who are afraid to seek out therapy because they have a fear that they won't be acknowledged or accepted by professionals? Like, what's your advice or your thoughts for them?
ASH: I can't give them advice, but if I had to…
SARAH: What are your thoughts?
ASH: If I had to, you do have to shop for your therapist, it took me three tries to find my own therapist that will help me through my own issues. I think it's PsychNet
KAYLA: I always use… is it Psychology Today?
ASH: Psychology Today is an article.
KAYLA: Oh. I wonder what the website I've always used is.
ASH: I'm currently looking, I think it is Psych … it is Psychology Today.
KAYLA: I did it! They also do articles, though. So, it's… They are doing everything over there.
ASH: Yeah. So go to Psychology Today, type in your name, your city… not your name, but your city.
SARAH: Doxx yourself to Psychology Today.
KAYLA: Find a therapist with the same name as you, only.
ASH: I may or may not have done that, I will not confirm or deny.
KAYLA: That's so funny.
ASH: But on Psychology Today, you can search up male, female counselors, non-binary counselors, trans counselors, ace counselors, in person or online, narrow down your search to what you are actually looking for. And if you know what you like, your traditional talk therapy or EMDR or even expressive arts therapy, find that niche to help you figure out which therapist will work best for you. Unfortunately, you do have to shop for your therapist and I hate that, I really do, but that's what you have to do.
SARAH: How do you know… Like, I'm a person who is very much like, I just go with things. So, like, how… like, I think if someone's obviously not a good fit for you, it's going to be like, okay, yes, I can see that this person is, you know, we did not click at all. But, you know, is there… now I'm just asking you questions for myself.
ASH: Yeah, yeah, I’m here.
KAYLA: This is a personal consultation for us.
SARAH: This is a personal consultation.
ASH: Hi, these are my fees, let's go.
SARAH: So, I just like… I feel like, I'm always just like, okay, this person seems nice and whatever. But I'm like, is this the right fit for me? I don't know, I just go with it.
ASH: Yeah. Now, we're going to get into questions. What has worked for you in the past?
SARAH: A great question.
ASH: What hasn’t worked for you in the past?
SARAH: A great question. Thank you for your services, I will send you a check in the mail.
ASH: You're welcome. But on the topic, you figure out what you specifically need, whether it's talk therapy or something else. I know talk therapy isn't really anything, it's just the general. Myself, I know I needed specifically art therapy as a kid, never got it, talk therapy never worked. And then I got recommended EMDR, I am not going to say that full name because it's a mouthful. And I'm like, actually, this is working for me. So, it's trial by error.
SARAH: Yeah. Do you forget what you're saying half way through the sentence? Because I just did.
KAYLA: No, noooo!
ASH: Yes, that happens all the time to me.
SARAH: What was I going to say? Oh, it wasn't a question.
KAYLA: Maybe that was the problem.
SARAH: I think also just because there are so many online like therapy services now that I think sometimes you are in a bit of a pickle, especially if you live… I don't know what it's like in other countries, I'm only speaking to the experience in the United States of America, your therapist has to be licensed in your state. And so, if you live in a smaller state, you might have a smaller pool, but because you can do online stuff, it is going to widen your pool. And I think it's a lot easier now to be able to find a person who does fit all of your needs rather than just being stuck with like, okay, who is in a 20-mile radius?
ASH: Yeah. Let me give you a little bit more information about this. So, counselors are licensed in their state alone. I'm in Missouri, I'm taking the Missouri exam to get my license, I will be licensed in Missouri once I get it. So, I can't go anywhere else unless I really want to seek out other states in which there's like reciprocity or applications I have to fill out if I want to go down to go over to Kansas and be like, hey, I want to take clients from Kansas so that I am more open to more people. And I know a lot of counselors do that as well. And they transfer it over online, and there's good and bad websites for therapy. So, it just, check your therapist's licensure where you are specifically, because it's going to help you out a lot, especially if you're self-paying insurance, you name it. We'll help you out as well, the best we can.
SARAH: Yeah.
ASH: Little tidbits here and there.
SARAH: Little tidbits. Kayla, is there anything that we haven't hit on that you want to talk about?
KAYLA: I’m looking at my list.
ASH: I think we hit on all my points, specifically, so.
KAYLA: I guess, do you have… oh, mine was more of a wrap up, so.
SARAH: Okay, I get… mine is kind of a wrap up, but my question would be, you know, since I think education of counselors is such an important thing and being educated in queer issues, in aspec issues, that sort of thing. Is there anything that the layman can do to, you know, do anything about that? Like, encourage the, you know, APA or, you know, universities to do whatever. Like, are there people who are advocating for more of this? How can we support them? Does that exist? Question mark.
ASH: It does exist. I know what you guys are doing; guys, gals, non-binary pals, taking that from Thomas Sanders, advocating with this podcast, yes, you are already doing it. But for people who don't have podcasts, who don't have YouTube or any other social media that they're actively advocating, tracking in contact with the APA, the ACA and be like, hey, we need more of the LGBT education, we need more advocacy, we need x, y and z to help individuals like me get the help we need. And also, on my end as a counselor, I'm doing everything I can to advocate for these clients, as well as myself, saying, hey, I need this type of therapy with the LGBTQ community in it, let's get going. But it's a slow process as well. So, just getting in contact with the ACA, APA, yeah.
SARAH: I would also say, if you are not American, which I know plenty of our audience is not living in the United States of America, I'm sure some countries’ systems are maybe a little bit better with queer issues than ours is, but they cannot be perfect, so, definitely look into it wherever you live.
ASH: Yeah.
SARAH: And, you know, because aspec people exist and they're going to continue existing and they're going to continue needing therapy, whether it's for like sexuality and identity-related things or not. And so that needs to be something that… I don't know, people are well versed in when you're talking to a professional. Like for me personally, whenever it has come up, I've always just been like, this is my identity, I don't have any issues with it, let's move on. Like, I don't want to talk about it because I don't want you asking questions because no, don't, just stop. But obviously, not everyone is going to have that experience, like not everyone is…
[00:40:00]
KAYLA: You're like, I already talk about this at least once a week on my podcast, I don't need to talk about it in therapy.
SARAH: I don’t need it. But not everyone is going to have that experience. So, I just do think whatever we can do to make noise about making it more required for therapists and counselors to have more support in this realm is good.
ASH: Yeah. It also first started over in Europe with a lot of our theorists, too, Sigmund Freud, I hate him, I love him…
KAYLA: Girl, that guy is crazy. What was he doing over there? And they make me read about him in every fucking psych class I took, there he was every time haunting me.
ASH: Off the record, you can leave this in if you want, but off the record, he was on to something.
SARAH: Tea! It doesn't shock me.
KAYLA: That guy was cuckoo crazy.
SARAH: Cuckoo bananas.
KAYLA: That guy was crazy. My last question is going to be, we already mentioned Psychology Today as a place to look for therapists, but are there any other like resources or websites or things that you would recommend to people who are trying to like do anything?
ASH: Do anything, yeah.
KAYLA: For the people.
SARAH: Psychological… psychological? Psychology Today is a good start, but if you're looking for something more specific, I would do a good Google search… Okay, boy. Sorry, my dog. A good Google search without AI, do not use AI for therapy, no! Absolutely not.
KAYLA: Brother, no.
ASH: I'm waiting for the ACA code of ethics to come out this year with AI stuff. Don't use AI for therapy.
SARAH: AI tells you what you want to hear, that's the whole thing.
ASH: Yeah.
KAYLA: It's so bad, you guys, it’s so bad.
ASH: We've already had a few cases and I'm going insane with it, but go away from AI and do a good web search, a deep dive into therapists in your area or online. And if you need something sooner, call or text 9-8-8 because they are your crisis center. So, yeah.
SARAH: Good to know. Oh, something I do is like if you're looking someone up, I do this with all doctors, not just… like any sort of medical professional. Like if you see stuff about them on one website, you know, I'm going to Google and I'm looking them up and I'm seeing what other websites have to say about them.
ASH: Yeah.
SARAH: That's how you know for sure that this person is accredited or whatever, if you find them in multiple places and they don't have people saying horrible things. Now, to be fair, people who leave reviews on like, doctors’ offices and stuff, it's either very positive or very negative.
KAYLA: They have something bad to say, yeah.
SARAH: So, you can't always trust that. But it's good to, you know, make sure, you know, look, look around, have a good look around the Internet.
ASH: A good look around, yeah.
SARAH: What should our poll be this week?
KAYLA: Mm, I guess like what have your experiences… If you're a person who like goes to therapy, what have you… like, what have your experiences been with therapy and your asexuality? Has it been like Sarah, where you're able to be like, this is your goodbye. Has someone been stinky nasty to you? Did you find someone that was randomly extremely educated?
SARAH: Yeah. Or if you haven't been to therapy…
ASH: What's stopping you?
SARAH: Why!?
KAYLA: Why!? At this time, I think we should all be going. So, what are you doing?
SARAH: What's holding you back, bud?
KAYLA: What are you doing over there?
SARAH: Oh, incredible. All right. Beef and juice. Kayla, what is your beef and your juice for this week?
KAYLA: Oh, boy, we like just did this the other day.
SARAH: I know.
KAYLA: My beef, it's going to be 90 something degrees this week.
SARAH: Toasty.
KAYLA: And I don't really have an interest in that because I don't have air conditioning.
SARAH: Mm
KAYLA: My juice is I'm going to play D&D with some friends tonight and I made a character that is the Tooth Fairy, so.
ASH: Love that!
KAYLA: Thank you so much, I'm really interested to see how that goes for me.
SARAH: My beef is my house is still not clean.
KAYLA: How did that happen!?
SARAH: My other beef is that I'm the only one who can fix that.
KAYLA: Oh my God! It's so tough when that happens, I hate when that happens. That has reminded me, I have to take my sheets out of the laundry and put them back in my bed, it's the worst one.
SARAH: My juice is… I ended up down a weird rabbit hole the other day watching ADHD videos talking about like specifically organizing and cleaning for ADHD people, and I found them helpful, and that's my juice.
KAYLA: Okay, not to be a bitch, but how have they been helpful if you haven't cleaned your apartment?
ASH: Ooh. Wow! Wow! Turning on each other.
SARAH: Wow!
KAYLA: I just like you… like just said…
SARAH: I'm sending a check to Ash and a bill to you.
KAYLA: I can't owe money on aspecs…
SARAH: But you can owe money to other aspecs, that's the rule.
KAYLA: That was the rule.
ASH: You can give money to me! I’m broke poor!
SARAH: No, it's more so about like…
KAYLA: It's just a question.
SARAH: Okay, here's the big thing, here's the big thing. I always have a pile of mail on my kitchen table that I never go through.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And I'm always like, oh, I hate that this pile of mail is here. And in the video, this girl was like, look, if there's a place where stuff always ends up, that needs to be just where it goes. Like, you're not going to convince your brain to put it somewhere else, you're not going to remember to put it somewhere else, if you put it there, you're going to forget where it is, you're not going to be able to find it.
KAYLA: So, you just have to accept it.
SARAH: So, I was like, yeah, maybe I just need to get like a little…
KAYLA: A mail tray
SARAH: Like a mail tray to put on my kitchen table.
ASH: There you go.
KAYLA: That is actually helpful.
SARAH: Totally, I told you!
ASH: You're using CBT techniques, let’s goooo!
KAYLA: Fine. Fine. I accept. I accept.
SARAH: All right. Ash, what is your beef and your juice for this week?
ASH: My beef is I have to retake my National Counselor Exam for the third time.
SARAH: You can do it!
ASH: Let's goooooo! The third time is the charm. My juice is actually this podcast; I love this podcast, it’s my juice.
SARAH: Aww!
KAYLA: Oh, my God. I don't think this podcast has ever been anyone's juice.
ASH: It's my juice, my little juice.
KAYLA: Wow! I love it.
ASH: Oh, sorry, my dog.
KAYLA: Hi there, dog!
SARAH: I love dogs. Amazing, thank you so much. I'm going to jump to Sarah from the future to do patrons because you don't need to hear me talk in full speed.
KAYLA: Yay!
SARAH: Hi, everyone, this is Sarah from the future, here with your patrons. Our $5 patrons who we are promoting this week are, Lowe, Mark Cornick, Mary S., Mel McMeans and Meredith. Our $10 patrons who are promoting something this week are Alastor, who would like to promote the podcast Shadows and Shenanigans. Ani, who would like to promote the importance of being kind to yourself and others. Arcnes, who would like to promote the Trevor Project. Benjamin Ybarra, who would like to promote Tabletop games. And Clare Olsen, who would like to promote @Impact_Frame. Our other $10 patrons are Danielle Hutchinson, Derick & Carissa, Elle Bitter, Eric, my aunt Jeannie, Johanna, Kayla's Dad, Maff, Martin Chiesl, Purple Hayes, Quartertone, Barefoot Backpacker, SongOStorm, Sydney Price and Val. And our $15 patrons are Ace, who would like to promote the writer, Crystal Scherer. Nathaniel White who would like to promote NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com. Kayla’s Aunt Nina, who would like to promote katemaggartart.com. And Schnell who would like to promote accepting that everyone is different and that's awesome. Our $20 patrons are Changeling & Alex who would like to promote their company, ControlAltAccess.com. And Dr. Jacki, Dragonfly, my mom and River, who would like to promote… girl, I don't know. River sent us a message, right? Oh, Kayla is not recording, so she's answering, but you can't hear her. Dr. Jacki, Dragonfly, my mom and River would like to promote River appreciating how I just make them all promote zine stuff. Great. Bye. Wow, thanks, Sarah, from the future, that was delightful.
(Dog barking)
SARAH: You know what? We all have something to say.
ASH: Oh my God, I'll be right back, hold on. Sorry about that, he saw the mailman.
SARAH: Dog!
KAYLA: Aww!
ASH: He saw the mailman, that's what happened.
SARAH: Oh, listen...
KAYLA: Classic.
SARAH: The mailman heard that we were talking about mail and said, I got to be involved. And then the dog said, hold on, I got to be involved too.
KAYLA: Aww, it’s so cute.
ASH: Yes, the mail man.
SARAH: Amazing. What's the dog's name?
ASH: His name is Ryder. He's 10 years old. Shih Tzu mini, Australian mix.
KAYLA: Aww!
ASH: Acts like a two-year-old.
SARAH: Respect.
KAYLA: That's sweet.
SARAH: Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Ash, for joining us and for sharing your expertise. Do you want people to know who you are on the Internet? Like, do you want to give any socials or anything?
ASH: All I have right now are personal accounts, I don't have any professional accounts yet, so sure, why not?
SARAH: Okay.
ASH: You can find me on Instagram @Ash_artworks, you can find all my artwork there.
SARAH: Ooh!
ASH: Because I am an expressive arts therapist, soon to be.
KAYLA: Love it!
SARAH: Yaaaaay! Yay!
[00:50:00]
ASH: And I do have a podcast where we talk about nonsense.
KAYLA: Ah! Love.
ASH: It’s called Brain Dead Conversations, where me and my partner talk about anything that piques our interest.
SARAH: So, basically, this podcast
ASH: Basically, this podcast without the…
SARAH: Complimentary.
ASH: Yes. We talked about cartoons, board games, last week we did mental health, so.
SARAH: I love that.
KAYLA: I love it.
SARAH: Everyone go listen.
KAYLA: We should just rebrand this as an anything podcast at this point, you know?
SARAH: The A is actually for anything.
KAYLA: For anything. Wait…
ASH: Wait, I'm your triple A. I'm your triple A. Wait, quadruple A.
SARAH: Ah! Oh, yes. There are so many As, it's overwhelming.
KAYLA: It’s overwhelming.
SARAH: Mm, that didn't quite work.
KAYLA: No, that’s all right.
SARAH: All right. Thank you so much for joining us. Everyone, check out that podcast, that sounds like a delight. Remind me, what was it called again?
ASH: Brain Dead Conversations, where he's dead and I'm the brain.
SARAH: Incredible. I love that. Okay. How does the end of this podcast go? Thanks for listening, tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.
KAYLA: And until then, take good care of your cows.
ASH: Mooo!
SARAH: Mooooo!
KAYLA: Mooooooo!
[END OF TRANSCRIPT]