Ep 384: The Overlap Between Trans and Aspec Identities
SARAH: Hey, what's up? Hello! Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl (I'm Sarah, that's me.)
KAYLA: And a bi-demisexual girl (that's me, Kayla.)
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand.
KAYLA: On today's episode: Aspecness and transness.
BOTH: Sounds fake, but okay.
SARAH: Welcome back to the pooooood!
KAYLA: Hi.
SARAH: Hey kids, you want to trans this aspecness?
KAYLA: Oh, I didn't like that.
SARAH: Want to trans your gender?
KAYLA: I just don't like the tone you're taking.
SARAH: Hey, kids.
KAYLA: Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.
SARAH: Hey, consenting adults.
KAYLA: No, thank you.
SARAH: You want to trans your gender?
KAYLA: Not with you, sir.
SARAH: I have a meme that's no longer in my phone, but it is in my computer now. It's a picture of Jungkook from his Calvin Klein campaign, and he's like leaning in and looking at the camera, but it's like his full body. And it says, “I am a singer,” but then on top of that, like subliminal messaging, it says, “I will make you transgender.”
KAYLA: Ah. Now that you've changed phones and not brought all of your things over, what of your meme collection? Are you starting over?
SARAH: No. So, there were a few folders that I did transfer over. My meme folder was one of them, but I culled it down first because it had like almost 700 photos in it.
KAYLA: Wow, yeah
SARAH: So, I culled it down to the ones that I like actually find myself using the most often.
KAYLA: And how many is that?
SARAH: Please hold, 118.
KAYLA: Okay, respectable.
SARAH: I transferred over my folder of all of my good Addie pictures
KAYLA: That’s nice.
SARAH: 142.
KAYLA: Of course.
SARAH: I also transferred over a recent addition to my photo folders, which is called ‘Cat Pooter,’ which is every time Addie sits on top of my keyboard and gets in my way and I take a picture of it. It currently only contains 19 items, but it's quickly growing.
KAYLA: Yeah. And the folder of pictures of me?
SARAH: No, the last one is a folder of pictures of my hives, which is in fact the largest folder at 173 items.
KAYLA: Oh, good. I should have a folder in my phone of pictures of you in a white dress or suit.
SARAH: Okay.
KAYLA: Those are my favorite pictures of you.
SARAH: All right. I did wear a white dress for our graduation picture.
KAYLA: You did, not that one though.
SARAH: Okay.
KAYLA: I don't care about that one.
SARAH: Okay. Anyway, we do have housekeeping this week, which is a reminder next week, none of this.
KAYLA: None of it.
SARAH: Enjoy it while you can, folks.
KAYLA: Should I just release like a five-minute episode of me talking to myself?
SARAH: Sure.
KAYLA: I don't think I'm going to do that.
SARAH: For the Golden Ratio podcast, because Jen, GR Mom, posts all the podcasts and does all the technical stuff, occasionally Ingo, GR Dad, wants to post a secret Ingo pod, but he can't do it himself, so he always has to tell Jen and ask her to post it.
KAYLA: That's tough.
SARAH: So, you would have to do it, no edits
KAYLA: I know how to edit.
SARAH: I know, but it wouldn't have the je ne sais quoi of a Sarah edit, and by that I mean…
KAYLA: It wouldn't have the making every ounce of silence gone.
SARAH: Correct. And it wouldn't have towards the end…
KAYLA: Significantly less editing.
SARAH: The silences start returning because I got really sleepy.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And I was falling asleep while I was editing.
KAYLA: I think I could replicate that perhaps.
SARAH: Okay.
KAYLA: Press the like button if you think I should make a secret episode.
SARAH: Okay. What would it be about?
KAYLA: I'll take suggestions.
SARAH: Okay. Well, because I do listen to this podcast, I would hear it.
KAYLA: If I posted one, how would you know? If I edited it myself and posted it, how would you know and listen to it?
SARAH: I'm sure people would tell me.
KAYLA: Who and where? Because you're not in the Discord.
SARAH: I downloaded Discord on my phone today because I now have space in my new phone.
KAYLA: Okay, all right.
SARAH: And I don't have to have all my apps offloaded.
KAYLA: Everyone, listen, if I make a secret episode, no one say anything.
SARAH: Here's the deal.
KAYLA: And then she'll never know…
SARAH: I would eventually find out.
KAYLA: When?
SARAH: When I inevitably finish editing so late on a Saturday that I have to post it.
KAYLA: Ugh
SARAH: And I would go into the Buzzsprout and I would say, what's this?
KAYLA: Yeah. But that would be so much later…
SARAH: It could be.
KAYLA: So, everyone, keep your mouths shut.
SARAH: If I went enough weeks without having to post it…
KAYLA: Then it could get buried.
SARAH: It could get buried and I might not see it.
KAYLA: Okay, so everyone be chill.
SARAH: Now I will be looking for it though.
KAYLA: And will I even do it? Who knows?
SARAH: Exactly. Kayla, what are we talking about this week?
KAYLA: This week we are discussing the intersection of aspec identities and trans umbrella identities, because if there's one thing about aspecs, it's that...
SARAH: They're going to be transed.
KAYLA: They are going to be transed.
SARAH: They love to be transed.
KAYLA: The data shows.
SARAH: The data shows.
KAYLA: Shall we start with the data?
SARAH: Yes, let's start with the data. Because me and Kayla both did a bit of independent research.
KAYLA: Preparing for our own podcast, we're just as shocked as you are.
SARAH: And for me it kind of falls into two different categories of things to talk about here. But I think it is important to first start with the data so that we know what we're working with.
KAYLA: Yes. Actually, there is one other piece of data that... Because I was perusing our book. Ever heard of it?
SARAH: Sounds Fake But Okay, subtitle, subtitle, subtitle.
KAYLA: Can you remember it? Try while I'm looking.
SARAH: Sounds Fake But Okay, I don't have it in here.
KAYLA: No, come on, don't cheat.
SARAH: An asexual and aromantic perspective on love, sexuality, love, sex…
KAYLA: Nope.
SARAH: Anything else? On love, relationships?
KAYLA: Uh-huh.
SARAH: Also, sex?
KAYLA: Uh-huh
SARAH: And anything else?
KAYLA: Nope.
SARAH: That's... You know I got like 80%. What is it?
KAYLA: An Asexual and Aromantic Perspective On Love, Relationships, Sex and Pretty Much Anything Else.
SARAH: Oh, I really didn't think we included the ‘pretty much’ because I'd had so many words, but it really is quite a long subtitle, isn't it?
KAYLA: Yeah, I mean here we are. Okay, in our book we have the 2020 but certainly...
SARAH: I have the 2024 results.
KAYLA: I'm looking at the Trevor Project National.
SARAH: I'm looking at the Ace Community Survey.
KAYLA: I know, I have that too but I wanted to compare...
SARAH: I didn't see anything more recent than 2020 from the Trevor Project.
KAYLA: Oh, okay, well, we'll just go with that. Okay, so we'll start... They should really get on that.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: I'm sure they've been busy. We’ll start with the Trevor Project 2020 National Survey on LGBTQ Youth Mental Health indicates that 25% of the LGBTQ youth in their sample identify as transgender or non-binary, with another 9% as questioning. When you look at people who identify as asexual, that goes up to 41% trans or non-binary and 13% questioning.
SARAH: So, you add that and that's over half who are either trans slash non-binary or questioning that they might be?
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: That's a lot.
KAYLA: That's quite a few. Looking at the Ace Community Survey, I think the most recent data is from the 2024 survey.
SARAH: Correct.
KAYLA: One in four ace respondents identify as trans or as part of the trans umbrella.
SARAH: Mm-hmm. Which includes, in this definition, non-binary.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: In most definitions, but I feel like in my head they're kind of separate even though I know they're not.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: So, if we're talking about the trans umbrella, we are also talking about non-binary identities.
KAYLA: Yeah. And for their purposes, they then further asked which words you would use to describe your gender identity if someone selected... I guess I don't know how the question was set up but…
SARAH: You can look at how the question was set up, they include a copy of the survey.
KAYLA: They do. Either way, they included non-binary, agender, genderqueer, man, genderfluid, no gender, woman, androgynous, demiboy, demigirl, bigender, neutrois?
[00:10:00]
SARAH: Neutrois, you took French.
KAYLA: How was I to know that's French?
SARAH: It looks French.
KAYLA: A lot of things look French.
SARAH: Ugh, okay.
KAYLA: Questioning, none of the above, other. The aro survey, the last aro census I found was from 2020, their questions were a little bit less specific.
SARAH: We didn't talk about the results of the...
KAYLA: Oh, did I just scoot on through?
SARAH: You just named what the categories were.
KAYLA: Right. I did, I said one in four.
SARAH: Okay, but then you said, you broke it down and then you didn't give the details of the broken down.
KAYLA: Well, I was just saying that those are what they include.
SARAH: Oh, okay. Well, one in four is those
KAYLA: I can break it down, but... One in four is all of that umbrella.
SARAH: 63% of those in that one in four, non-binary. 30.8%, agender. 29.4% genderqueer. It's not until the fourth one that we get to a binary trans identity, which is man or male.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Then gender-fluid, then no gender, then 11.6% woman or female and other binary trans identity.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Which is crazy. Anyway, continue. Go on to the aro.
KAYLA: Okay, I was looking at the aro census from 2020. Like I said, it's a little bit less specific in that... I like in the ace survey that they ask about the trans umbrella, the way that they have the gender identity broken down in this is you could say like woman, non-binary, agender, man, whatever, but it doesn't specify if I were to select woman whether I mean like cis or not.
SARAH: Cis or trans, yeah
KAYLA: So, to me, from the way they have set it up, it's a little bit harder to know which of these identities also include being under the trans umbrella.
SARAH: Like I do appreciate when people are like... Because when they split it up like cis woman or trans woman, that feels a little...
KAYLA: Cis woman or trans woman, right
SARAH: But for the purposes of something like this, it is, I think, relevant information.
KAYLA: Yeah, which is like how I… I like how they worded it in the ace one.
SARAH: Yeah, it's kind of like how on the US census, they ask your race and then they ask if you are Hispanic in addition to that. It's like ask your gender identity and then in addition to that, are you trans?
KAYLA: Yeah. Well, because I think the Ace Survey too lets you select more than one gender and I'm assuming more than one sexuality as well. So that's helpful. Either way, even being less specific with things, a third of participants in the aro census indicated they were non-binary. The most popular was woman at 48%...
SARAH: Not even half
KAYLA: But again, what that means no one could say. And it isn't until... So, you have woman at 48%, non-binary at 33-ish%, then agender or no gender, 21-ish%, and then male, 15-ish%, and then going down to some other ones, but yes.
SARAH: So, now, we don't necessarily have the statistics to compare it to of like in the gay... Like if we're talking about gay men, what percentage of... But like it does get a little complicated because I feel like… I mean, if you use the script of gay, you can be any gender, really. And then if we get into gay men and it's like, well, then you're probably just going to get the binary. So, it's hard to... So, we don't have those statistics to compare to other identities as to like aspec people are three times more likely to be non-binary, we don't have that. But I think even just looking at the numbers, it's like, those are high numbers.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: That is a high frequency of trans and gender non-conforming identities.
KAYLA: Yeah. I do wonder just what you were saying about like trying to compare it to other identities, it just reminded me of like the discourse around like, how can you be a non-binary lesbian, blah, blah, blah.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: And I think a lot of people that maybe would identify as a non-binary lesbian would just call themselves queer, maybe, just to like sidestep all of that. And so, I think that could be part of the reason that the aspec community has so many trans umbrella folks is because attraction is often removed or somewhat removed. That there's less of that like, well, you can't be this and that. You know what I'm saying?
SARAH: Because everything is like split attraction.
KAYLA: Yeah, I guess.
SARAH: So, it’s like you can kind of do whatever and that feels like a safer space for those people than other parts of the queer community?
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: That makes sense. I read a book, recently, it was for work.
KAYLA: Okay, job.
SARAH: I knew… I only read books for work, I don't read books for pleasure, don't be silly.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And I knew it was gay, but then it turns out that the main character is, I think an aro lesbian.
KAYLA: Huge.
SARAH: And then her best friend is a trans masc, like uses he/him pronouns but still identifies with being a lesbian.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: And that was just… like, it wasn't like something that they like spent a lot of time on, they were just like, this is it. And I was like, hell yeah.
KAYLA: And this book was?
SARAH: It is called Robbie McNeil's Hit List by...
KAYLA: That sounds familiar.
SARAH: It only came out about a month ago. It is by Brianna Heath and it is about a Robbie McNeil who is a hit woman.
KAYLA: That sounds fun.
SARAH: Be gay, do crime. I enjoyed it.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: I did indeed enjoy it. Anyway, that has been… wait, you can add that to the bookshop.org, you can finally add a Sarah recommendation.
KAYLA: We don't even have a Sarah section. Should I make one just for this?
SARAH: Do it!
KAYLA: I guess I could also add it to the list of books with canonically aspec characters as well.
SARAH: Yeah, you could.
KAYLA: Huge.
SARAH: And I was like… it was totally my style because I was like, it's just mentioned, like it's a fact, but it's not about that. And I was like, hell yeah. This is about killing people!
KAYLA: Love.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Wait, I want to write it down. Even though I've been reading the same book since January.
SARAH: What book?
KAYLA: Don Quixote.
SARAH: Right, I forgot about that.
KAYLA: It's a really long book, you guys.
SARAH: There's a song by Seventeen called Don Quixote, but the way that it's kind of like paced in the song when they say Don Quixote, it sounds to me like Donkey Hode.
KAYLA: There is a donkey in it.
SARAH: So, I'm like, Donkey Hode? I would also recommend the song Don Quixote by Seventeen.
KAYLA: Okay. Good to know. All right. Anyway, so that's the data. And that's the episode, bye.
SARAH: Bye. No, okay. So that's the groundwork. We've laid it.
KAYLA: There it is. And you all probably…
SARAH: It's setting, it's drying…
KAYLA: I feel as though if you listen to this podcast, you're probably somewhat in the community enough, perhaps, to have seen…
SARAH: If you listen to this podcast, you're fucking trans. You didn't know that yet, I just diagnosed you.
KAYLA: Diagnosed. Speaking of people that listen to this podcast, I do want to give a quick shout out. Last week, we talked about how people who have listened to every episode of this podcast are not well and are not normal. And I got an email from Sonia from Sydney. Good day.
SARAH: Good day, mate.
KAYLA: They said that. Not me. So, it's okay if I say that. They said that they…
SARAH: It’s not cultural appropriation.
KAYLA: It's not. They said they started listening to our podcast around four years ago, they think, and they were religiously listening to every single episode. Last week was the episode they finally reached current.
SARAH: Oh my God.
KAYLA: And that was the one that we were like, ha ha, you're weird if you’ve listened to every episode. So.
SARAH: Sonia, you're weird, I love you.
KAYLA: Shout out to Sonia.
SARAH: I also had an update from Martin Chiesl because when I re-downloaded Discord, I saw that Martin Chiesl had messaged me and informed me that it was not… when the song about The Rice Purity Test was performed…
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: It was not just randomly in the cafeteria.
KAYLA: Oh, I did see this, I did see this message.
SARAH: There was some sort of event happening.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: So, it wasn't just like a weird homie hops up on the table, starts strumming about kinks. Anyway.
KAYLA: Yeah. Okay. Anyway.
SARAH: Back to this serious topic.
KAYLA: The groundwork is there.
SARAH: Groundwork laid. Okay. So why? I was looking up some like academic articles.
KAYLA: Not many.
SARAH: Not many. I did read one in its entirety.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: It wasn't that long. I don't know if I understood it correctly.
[00:20:00]
KAYLA: I wonder if it's the same one that I read.
SARAH: Which one did you read?
KAYLA: Well, I skimmed one because I didn't end up finding it that helpful to what I was thinking of. Intersectional, asexual, and transgender… Okay, what a title, ‘Intersectional asexual and transgender and gender diverse identity and existential concerns: A thematic analysis.’
SARAH: I did skim that and one of the authors of that seems to have done multiple papers in this realm.
KAYLA: Wow. Look at you doing what you're supposed to do.
SARAH: University of Michigan.
KAYLA: Wooooo!
SARAH: I would like to shout out Jared W. Boot-Haury.
KAYLA: Where were you when we were there? We could have been besties.
SARAH: Michigan School of Psychology. Now, I have a bad piece of news, it's not the University of Michigan.
KAYLA: What is it?
SARAH: But it is, I just googled it, it is a private graduate school for clinical psychology in Farmington Hills.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: So, it is still in Michigan, it's not the University of Michigan but it is still in Michigan, I will still give you points.
KAYLA: They also look like perhaps our age, so not as though they could have been our professor.
SARAH: Yeah. Correct. Either way, I have seen, I believe, two different articles credited with this person as one of the authors.
KAYLA: I'm looking at their profile now, and there's one, two, three, four, five about asexuality.
SARAH: Great. I love that. Thanks, Jared. The one I read is called ‘Exploring the Experiences of Heterosexual and Asexual Transgender People.’ It is from 2018.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: It was pretty interesting, not super in-depth, in my humble opinion.
KAYLA: Yeah. Jared did get a BA in political science from the University of Michigan in 2013, so we were actually at the school at the same time.
SARAH: No, we did not.
KAYLA: 2013?
KAYLA: I graduated high school in 2015.
SARAH: University of Michigan, 2013.
KAYLA: Right. I see about when I graduated high school. Continue.
SARAH: So close, but so far away. This is why you didn't get a math degree.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: Me neither.
KAYLA: I was going to say.
SARAH: Me neither. I'm perhaps worse at math than anyone.
KAYLA: Ah.
SARAH: Not objectively true, but in my heart, true.
KAYLA: Right.
SARAH: I read this whole thing, it was basically talking about how the experience of asexual people is often viewed through a very binary cis lens, but obviously… no, that's not true. This was about trans, sorry, I said that backwards. The experience of trans people is often through a very like… no, I understand it in my heart, but I can't say it in words. Let me read you the abstract.
KAYLA: Mm. Tough for the podcast.
SARAH: The intersection of emerging studies of the transgender experience, heterosexualities and asexualities, they looked into how those two different groups made sense of gender and what their experience was coming out as transgender. Understanding transgender experiences with cisnormativity across sexual and other social locations and possibilities for expanding studies of heterosexualities and asexualities beyond cisgender experiences. Do you understand it in your heart?
KAYLA: So, the study was looking at how hetero versus ace trans people experienced coming into their transness?
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: And the differences thereupon?
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: There were some interesting things in it. The one quote that I want to mention is, when it talks about like them making sense of their gender, it says, put simply, they echoed more fluid and expansive notions of gender common… sorry, this is both asexual and heterosexual.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: They echoed more fluid and expansive notions of gender common in historical and contemporary transgender communities, while intentionally or otherwise highlighting that cisgender interpretations were not necessary for the adoption of any a or not asexual identity practice or relationship. In the case of asexual respondents, their comments revealed the potential of systematically exploring asexual gendered experiences. To which I said that sounds interesting, what does that mean?
KAYLA: What does that mean?
SARAH: It might be in the article, maybe I didn't understand it.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: But I would like to know more.
KAYLA: Say it again?
SARAH: The potential of systematically exploring asexual gendered experiences.
KAYLA: Asexual gendered experiences. An asexual experience but it's gendered.
SARAH: I just wrote sounds interesting, but what does that mean? I would like to know more, that's my literature review.
KAYLA: Asexual gendered experiences. I mean, I guess it could mean the different experiences people have as asexuals based on their gender.
SARAH: I don't know, I've thought too much about it and it hasn't made any more sense.
KAYLA: No, that's fair.
SARAH: The other interesting thing is… I mean, this is a pretty interesting article regardless, but a pretty interesting paper, whatever you want to call it. Another thing I found interesting about this was it includes the demographics for both the asexual and heterosexual samples. And they did ask them to use, like they did use more specific trans identities. They asked them to self-identify basically. And they didn't put them into buckets and give them options and say, pick one. They said, please self-identify and then they reflected that. All of them are under the trans umbrella, but they reflected that in these demographics. They also included whether they were romantic or aromantic
KAYLA: Mm, good
SARAH: Which I thought was interesting. This might mean nothing, it's not a huge sample; it's like 57 people, but it is still interesting to me.
KAYLA: Okay. Statistically significant.
SARAH: And there were more romantic than aromantic trans respondents. All of them are ace.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: But if you look at people who identify as… the one that was equal… equal numbers of romantic and aromantic people is gender-neutral, I don't know what that means.
KAYLA: I think of that as agender perhaps.
SARAH: Agender is separate, agender was for romantic and to aromantic respondents.
KAYLA: Let's look in the agender Reddit from seven years ago.
SARAH: Well, this was many years ago. The highest congregation, the highest... You know what I'm trying to say.
KAYLA: This person says, gender-neutral people may feel like they're in the middle of the feminine to masculine spectrum, like in the middle of those traits on the spectrum as agender people would not be on the spectrum at all.
SARAH: Right. So, they're on the binary in the middle.
KAYLA: Yeah, because agender is just like, I don't identify with gender at all.
SARAH: Yes. And the non-binary is, I don't identify with the binary. So, gender-neutral would be, I acknowledge and accept the binary and I believe my spot on it is in the middle.
KAYLA: Yeah. I am seeing other places that are saying agender and gender neutral are like the same. So, I think… I don't know.
SARAH: It is interesting to me though that six of these respondents use this term.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: I don't know if that was because they maybe came from the same community and used… I don't know.
KAYLA: Yeah, it is interesting.
SARAH: But the highest occurrences are non-binary, 11 romantic and 4 aromantic.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: And more trans men than trans women.
KAYLA: Interesting.
SARAH: Anyway, that's my interesting facts. And then there were some other articles that I didn't understand. Is there any other things that you want to talk about here?
KAYLA: I feel like we really swapped research.
SARAH: We did
KAYLA: I mean, on the topic of like, why do we think this occurrence is occurring? I was curious about your like personal experience with it, if like… okay, backing up.
SARAH: Kayla is diagnosing me with trans.
KAYLA: I am. No. So, when we wrote our book, so titled, we had people submit like quotes and answer questions for us, which we had throughout the book and we had a lot of quotes in our chapter about gender. And I remember, I think one of the questions was about like, is there any relationship between your gender identity and your sexuality or romantic orientation? And some people felt like there was no relationship at all, like they were just completely separate identities, some people felt like they had a lot to do with each other. So, I'm curious how you feel about the interaction of those identities for yourself.
SARAH: For myself?
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: I don't think they interact.
KAYLA: Interesting.
[00:30:00]
SARAH: I think it's just a totally different thing. I think being prescribed the aspec lenses by being aspec has probably informed my relationship with my gender, but I don't think it has the aspecness, it's the lenses, not the attraction or lack thereof.
KAYLA: Yeah. I mean, that was kind of one of my big thoughts about why this is an interaction, or like why so many aspecs are trans is just that whether you realize you're trans or aspec first, I think both of those identities are very eye-opening about the rules in society and being prescribed compulsory sexuality or compulsory gender or whatever. And so, it makes sense to me that if you come to one, you would be more open to realizing the other.
SARAH: Yeah. I found a Reddit thread. It's in r/asexuality from five years ago, it's titled ‘Being a Trans Ace Isn't Great,’ and they're talking about how the communities tend to skew cis, and then people are like, well, that's not entirely true, but it's like obviously any one person's experience of the community is based on the community around them. So maybe the community around this person does skew really cis.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: In any regard, there were some interesting comments. And there was one person who said, they were talking about how anecdotally a lot of the agender people they knew were either ace or pan.
KAYLA: Interesting.
SARAH: And they said, “when you stop caring about sex, gender can be ambiguous.” And then people were discoursing about it underneath in the most-polite way I've ever seen on the internet.
KAYLA: I love to see that.
SARAH: This person was like, well, as a trans woman, I have to disagree about gender becoming ambiguous due to not caring about sex. I think it's pretty reductive and while it may be true for many people, I don't feel any less of a woman being ace. And OP was like, certainly, I didn't mean to imply it was for everyone, that is my experience. And I see several other people questioning attachment to gender after being ace, but it isn't universal and asexuals definitely usually still feel their gender, you are certainly very valid. And then the commenter said, I figure you didn't, but it wasn't completely obvious to me, so I just wanted to make sure. Smiley face.
KAYLA: Oh my God, everyone is so nice.
SARAH: The most-polite discourse I've ever seen.
KAYLA: I do think that original comment does have a point though. And I think that that also could be a big part of it is say you are an ace and/or aro person with no attraction of any kind and maybe very little interest in like sex or romance. I think sex and romance are such big parts of the performance of gender in different ways for men versus women about how you are performing that. But I think so much of being a woman has to do with being attractive to men, being romantic, wanting long term relationships, like being a mother, whatever. And so much of being a man is being super sexual. I don't want to say being a predator, but like, you know, like getting after it, whatever. If you take that away, it's kind of like those are two huge parts of what it means to be those genders, societally, at least in America. And so, you take that away and it's like, well, what is really attaching me to this identity and this performance if that is gone?
SARAH: Right. I think for me maybe another, I don't know if it's a symptom or a reason, but I think part of the reason why my gender and my aspecness just don't feel related at all is because I'm just the kind of person who has never felt super compelled by that performance of gender.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And so, like even, like, I don't know, like, I mean, I do look at pictures of myself from like high school or college and I'm like, who is that!?
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Like, femme queen. But like, even then I wasn't that femme.
KAYLA: No.
SARAH: Like, I've never been the ideal of a woman… I've never performed the ideal of a woman.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And even before I knew I was aspec, I knew that I didn't want kids. So like, I wasn't performing that my entire life. So, to take that away isn't a big loss for me.
KAYLA: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
SARAH: Perhaps, it's a gain to not be burdened by such a thing.
KAYLA: Perhaps.
SARAH: All right, shall we jump to the question of gender dysphoria and how that can or cannot impact, not can or cannot, does or does not, depending on a person, impact their sexuality?
KAYLA: Yes. Indeed.
SARAH: There are a couple of Reddit threads about this, you said you were looking at one, which one were you looking at?
KAYLA: I was looking at one from four years ago, it's called ‘correlation between being transgender and asexual’ in the r/demisexuality. Gryffindor_StarKid, okay, work.
SARAH: That is not one of the ones that I found.
KAYLA: Okay. Interesting. It was basically just talking… this person was talking about they're a trans guy, attracted to women, and they believe they're on the asexual spectrum. Currently identifying as demiromantic, not sure about sexual identity. They're curious about how their gender identity and dysphoria influence each other, and they're talking about how they have really intense bottom dysphoria. It's similar to them believing they might be on the asexual spectrum or unsure about certain types of intimacy and things like that. They're not sure how much their bottom dysphoria is impacting those feelings and if those feelings might change once they've fully transitioned.
SARAH: Yeah. The way you were saying that, and I was like, well, yeah, of course I don't feel it's connected, my dysphoria is not about the bottom. Anyway.
KAYLA: Right, right, right, right, right, right, right.
SARAH: He he he. Anyway, I found two different threads. One was in r/asktransgender, and one was in r/asexuality. The first was from six years ago, the second was from two years ago, and it's basically the same thing. It's just like, how do you know if it's bottom dysphoria or if it's asexuality? And both of them honestly had really good, wholesome responses. The top response to this one in r/asktransgender is identifying as an orientation isn't a pledge to forever be that orientation, it's just a description of what you felt so far, you don't have to be married to it.
KAYLA: I think it comes down to a lot of what we were talking about last week. Like, if you are identifying as aspec, and a big part of that is because of bottom dysphoria and because of your anatomy, you would be extremely uncomfortable having sex or being intimate in that way. And that is, ‘why’ you're identifying as aspec. I don't think that makes you any less aspec. And if you were to transition or get on hormones or have surgery, whatever, and that feeling changes, that's fine. Like that person said, you don't have to identify that way forever, that's just how you're feeling right now.
SARAH: Yeah. And I found a couple of things on Reddit and then also on this person's personal blog, basically talking about their experiences with transitioning and being asexual. And I think in most of the cases, they were like, yes, I was asexual before and I'm asexual now. But their experience of what that is like has changed.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: So like, for example, this person, Worst Luck But Best Luck, on Reddit, says, trans ace here, I was sex-repulsed until T, then gained the lovely half sarcasm libido it's known for. It didn't make me less ace even when the bottom dysphoria dried up because for me, libido outweighed any previous disgust for self-intimacy. I still wasn't attracted to people though. Loving my own body didn't make me suddenly want to share it with anyone, it just made me very comfortable in it.
KAYLA: Yeah. I was going to bring up the T thing. Like it's a very common experience to go on T and have a libido spike just because of the hormones. But again, we're talking about the difference between being attracted to someone, how interested you are in having sex and what your sex drive is. Those are three separate things that obviously can interact with each other, but, you know, different.
SARAH: Right. And there was another on a thread, this is also r/asktransgender, but it was a different thread. This person was talking about how they and a lot of other trans women, by nuking their T, by going on estrogen, it removed some of that sex drive. And this person, Mondro, says, honestly, nuking my T and by extension, my sex drive has been one of the best parts of transitioning.
KAYLA: Interesting.
SARAH: And this person says, you prefer not to have a sex drive? And they said, absolutely. While not every ace person has the same experience, it's not that uncommon for ace people to not want sex. Correct. Imagine being hungry, but you find all of the food around you unappetizing.
KAYLA: Mm
SARAH: And then there was another comment that says, this was the same for me, it was a relief to not have that libido anymore.
[00:40:00]
KAYLA: That's so interesting, I hadn't thought about it in that direction.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Oh
SARAH: What? Did you want to say something?
KAYLA: I was just going to read you an expert… excerpt from the book of…
SARAH: An expert.
KAYLA: Sounds Fake But Okay on such topics.
SARAH: Please do.
KAYLA: Just on the topic of how your ace identity might change with transitioning specifically, we had someone that submitted some answers to our survey for our book. Oh, I remember… okay, remembering the book as you read it. They had submitted responses to us and in between then and when we reached out to them to be like, hey, is it still okay if we include this in the book, they had stopped identifying as aspec. And she very nicely was like, do you still want me to participate? Whatever. But it was very interesting, their experience. So, I'm going to read it. So, Phoebe says, I had identified as ace and I think I truly was prior to my transition, I could come up with a laundry list of possible causes, but what I liked about the asexual label was that it denied that sort of questioning. It was all encompassing and non-pathologizing. Oh my God, I'm so glad I wasn't the one that read this in the audiobook. I could simply say I'm asexual, be understood and hopefully respected. Finding a community of other ace people who navigated amatonormativity too was massively beneficial to embracing myself authentically, even if I would one day leave that community. Now that I have and in some ways still am transitioning, I felt strong sexual attraction. But one thing I've taken away from all this is there's nothing good or bad about that, it's simply another experience I could explore or not explore, rather than some cosmic narrative I'm supposed to follow. I also have the language to describe it on its own terms too and I may need those labels again one day. Anyhow, it makes my relationship, sexual or otherwise, way better and I'm forever grateful for that. Work, Phoebe.
SARAH: Yay! The other thing I wanted to talk about is I found a blog on the internet, it belongs to Kara Babcock. And Kara has this post that's called Ace in Transition. So, it's about being ace and trans. And there are a couple of things that I wanted to point on. To point on?
KAYLA: Point to?
SARAH: To point out. Point to and point out.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: So, there's a section where Kara says, “in recent years, I've been questioning whether or not I experience aesthetic attraction. Aesthetic attraction means being attracted to someone's appearance, style, physicality, et cetera, but on the level of appreciation of their looks rather than a sexual attraction. Many ace people can appreciate someone's beauty or recognize that someone is hot. I don't feel this yet when I looked at some women, I liked how they looked, I was fascinated by their appearance. This was very confusing and for a while, I wondered if I was wrong, maybe I was aesthetically attracted to women. Coming out as trans has helped me to reframe this entirely differently. When I look at a woman and appreciate her appearance, it's less about her aesthetics and more about my envy. I think, oh, I wish my lips were like hers, or I really like that hairstyle, I wish I had that hair. In hindsight, that was literally how I've been thinking about this the entire time and it's further confirmation of my trans identity. I was fascinated by these women not because of some attraction, but rather because I was imagining what it would be like to be like them.” And then, Kara goes none to say, “I recently wrote about cherishing the changes happening to my body and in that post, I briefly discussed how my asexuality disguised my gender dysphoria. Everyone has a complicated relationship with their body, ace people often have very complicated relationships with their body because our experience of sexuality is often so different from everyone else. Before I came out to myself as trans, I attributed all of my hangups about embodiment to my asexuality. Now I'm coming to understand it's so much more complex than that. Transition has made me feel so much more connected to my body. Even though my physical changes have only really just begun, they're exciting harbingers of the body I will one day have, a body that is more congruent with my gender of woman. This is so euphoric, so freeing. I spent 30 years thinking of myself as a man and being, you know, only just okay with my body as it was. Now it's like I'm waking up. I don't merely have to tolerate having a body, I can revel in my body. And now it is becoming the body that matches my idea of myself. I look at myself in the mirror now, and every day I am a little more obsessed with myself. I love myself, and I love my body, and it feels good.” And then the next section is, “am I still ace?” And the answer is yes. The answer is yes. “My changes are definitely affecting how I experience myself as a sexual being. And for the better, that spiritual connection I described above is also sexual in a way. As my body and my sense of self become more congruent, I feel more comfortable exploring that aspect of myself. That doesn't translate into more exploration, my libido has actually decreased, and I am grateful for that side effect. And I'm re-evaluating so much about this aspect of myself. But what exploration I now engage in is more fruitful, shall we say? More meaningful than it felt before.”
KAYLA: This person is such a good writer.
SARAH: I know. “That being said, I'm still not attracted to anyone. So, the answer to the earlier question is, for me at least, no, coming out as trans has not made my asexual label obsolete. I'm proudly an asexual trans woman.”
KAYLA: Love that. This all just makes me so curious about, what would you call like not body dysmorphia, but dysmorphia of like actions, I guess? I think it's so much easier to see how dysmorphia could affect sexuality and sexual acts rather than romantic ones. But I could see a world where, say you're born as a man, but you're a woman. You're expected to take on the masculine role in relationships, but that feels dysphoric to you. And so, you're like, I'm aromantic, I don't have an interest in that. But what you really don't have an interest in is being that masculine role. Do you know what I'm saying?
SARAH: I do. I think that's complicated because then it's leaving you with the question of what is inherent to masculinity and what is enforced upon us by society.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: So, you could very much have that dysphoria, but that is dysphoria of the societal expectation, and not necessarily dysphoria of the actual inherent definition of what masculinity or femininity is. Does that make sense?
KAYLA: Yeah, it does.
SARAH: So like, yes, it does exist. But I feel like it's a slightly different category.
KAYLA: Different, yeah. I would just be, I feel like there's so much more out there about trans ace people than trans aro people. And I would just be so interested to know if those identities interact at all, or maybe it's just that by nature of how things are, trans and aro identities have less kind of that, like, enmeshing to them.
SARAH: Right.
KAYLA: I don't know.
SARAH: Yeah, because, I mean, being trans, in my mind, this is not necessarily true, but in my mind, being trans is more… like, in my mind, being trans is kind of about sex, because it is about partially, like, your sexual organs and feeling like you are in the correct body. Now, is that the only thing that impacts what gender you feel you are? No, otherwise, there wouldn't be so many asexual trans people.
KAYLA: Yeah. But I think it does feel like a more physical experience, whether that is sex or not.
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: I do think a lot of it has to do with your physical body and whether that matches inside.
SARAH: It reminds me of the previous term that was more often used that's not really PC now, that's transsexual, which I'm guessing it was referring to sex as in, like, biological sex.
KAYLA: I assume so.
SARAH: But in my mind, it does feel like it's addressing the, like, sexuality of it more than transgender, which I think transgender is a better term, because it is about the gender.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: It's not about your sex necessarily, although you can trans your sex, but you can't trans your chromosomes, I don't think.
KAYLA: I don't know.
SARAH: I don't know.
KAYLA: Simply, I have no idea.
SARAH: But yeah, I think for me, transness, whether it's true or not, for me, has always felt more embroiled in sex and sexuality than even… like, transness more than non-binaryness, you know?
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: Like, binary transness, I mean.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Because if you're non-binary, if you're agender, like, that is about distancing yourself from the gender.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And you can have any sort of situation going on and still be in that identity, but if you are a binary trans person, your end goal is to fit… in most cases, is to fit on the binary, just on the other side.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And so, it feels more related to sex because, like, you have to… like, it's a sex change rather than just like gender-affirming care more broadly that doesn't necessarily reflect a sex change. Does that… is that... I want to make sure I'm not coming off as offensive.
KAYLA: No, I understand what you're saying, I don't think it's completely accurate.
SARAH: I don't either.
KAYLA: But I understand your thought process.
[00:50:00]
SARAH: Like, that's what my head is...
KAYLA: And I agree that it feels like a physical situation.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Which lends itself more to interacting with sexuality versus romantic orientation.
SARAH: Right. And, like, as you said, I don't think that's necessarily true what my instinct is.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: But if it's my instinct, it's probably other people's instinct as well.
KAYLA: No, but I understand why that's the thought process though.
SARAH: Yeah, and that informs how we think about it.
KAYLA: And I think especially with how binary trans identities have been represented in media, about like you have to pass and you have to, like, you must get the surgeries when we know that that's not true, you could completely do nothing and still be trans.
SARAH: Right.
KAYLA: Like, it makes sense that that would be what you associate it with.
SARAH: Yeah. Anything else?
KAYLA: In conclusion, what is gender? I don't know.
SARAH: What is gender? In conclusion, all of you are trans.
KAYLA: If you want to hear us be more eloquent about this, I would recommend our book.
SARAH: Chapter eight?
KAYLA: Let's find out.
SARAH: I think it's chapter eight.
KAYLA: Seven.
SARAH: Fuck!
KAYLA: If you count the prologue as one though.
SARAH: God fucking damn it!
KAYLA: I guess it could be eight. I think there's good stuff in there. And we talk more also in that chapter about like being a woman ace and a man ace and like difficulties there, not just like trans and non-binary and such. So that's my plug.
SARAH: And aroness as well
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: To a lesser extent, I think, just because the responses we got were more ace-heavy than aro-heavy, but yeah.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Kayla, what's our poll for this week? I think our poll should be, ‘are you trans?’
KAYLA: I think the better question is, ‘are you cis?’ Like, that seems like it would be more rare, perhaps. I guess...
SARAH: Yeah, I do. And I also think like there are some people who identify as non-binary or agender who do not identify with the trans umbrella.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: So, I think it is more... it’s a clearer question
KAYLA: Are you genderqueer? I feel like that's the term I've been using more often now, to be like non-cis is just genderqueer.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Because similar to queer it could be like whatever.
SARAH: Yeah. I do feel like I associate that less with the binary though.
KAYLA: Yeah, I get that.
SARAH: Anyway, are you cis? If so, what are you doing here?
KAYLA: Why?
SARAH: Have you considered being less cis? Just an idea.
KAYLA: Just a thought.
SARAH: Just a thought.
KAYLA: Something to think about.
SARAH: Something to think about.
KAYLA: Always something good to consider, just in case.
SARAH: Kayla, have you considered being less cis?
KAYLA: Um, not heavily. I mean, I think by nature of being in this community, I just feel as though if I wasn't cis, I would have known by now. You know what I mean?
SARAH: I suppose, but you can come and do it at any point in life.
KAYLA: Yeah, I mean, I'm not opposed to it.
SARAH: I just think that you're talking all this talk alongside me and you're not walking the walk.
KAYLA: Right. What it feels like to me is that you finally updated your pronouns after I was bothering you about it for so long and now you're trying to do the same thing to me.
SARAH: I'm just saying I think everyone should be queer in every sense of the word.
KAYLA: Interesting.
SARAH: And you could do better.
KAYLA: That's fair, and I'll take that into consideration. However, I wouldn't want to just say that when I'm not really just to appease you.
SARAH: And you know that's valid and that's the right choice.
KAYLA: Thank you. This was really a respectful conversation.
SARAH: I just think everyone should be very queer all the time.
KAYLA: I mean, I agree.
SARAH: Kayla, what's your beef and your juice for this week?
KAYLA: My beef is that I woke up this morning, and guess how many degrees it was outside.
SARAH: Seventeen.
KAYLA: Thirty-four.
SARAH: Fahrenheit.
KAYLA: Fahrenheit.
SARAH: Honestly, if you woke up and it was 34 Celsius, that also would be pretty bad.
KAYLA: I don't know what that is.
SARAH: That'd be really hot.
KAYLA: Okay, well, I wouldn't want that. It was like 80 here the other day.
SARAH: Damn.
KAYLA: I woke up and it was freezing. What the hell is that? My juice. What is my juice? My juice is that this weekend we are celebrating Dean and I's negative one anniversary, which is the date of our wedding, but the year before.
SARAH: But next year.
KAYLA: But it's next year. So, it's not our zero-with anniversary, which would be the day of our wedding, but it's our negative one.
SARAH: It's the negative one.
KAYLA: And so, we're going to a gay club…
SARAH: Wooo!
KAYLA: That the theme of that night is Indie Sleaze
SARAH: Aww
KAYLA: Which I understand to be a Kesha-esque aesthetic.
SARAH: I don't know that I would call Kesha Indie.
KAYLA: I mean how she looks. If you looked up Pinterest of Indie Sleaze, you would understand what I was saying.
SARAH: No, I know what Indie Sleaze is, because my coworker was Indie Sleaze at the height of Indie Sleaze.
KAYLA: Pardon me. I just feel as though some Kesha fits give Indie Sleaze, not necessarily her music.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Anyway, I don't even know that the outfit I have prepared is the most Indie Sleaze, but this club is just known for… like, last time my friend was there, the bartender was dressed as Sexy Lorax and it like was not Halloween. So that's just kind of the vibe we're bringing.
SARAH: Right. I love that this is what you're doing for your pre-anniversary, your negative one anniversary.
KAYLA: I just felt as if I needed to be in the club, I don't know.
SARAH: Right. I never feel that way.
KAYLA: I know you don't, I know. But I have a really good outfit planned, I'm very excited.
SARAH: I love that for you.
KAYLA: Thank you.
SARAH: Are you ready?
KAYLA: Yeah. I've been told there's a lot to get through.
SARAH: I have two significant beefs. Let me start with the first, which is the US healthcare system.
KAYLA: Ah
SARAH: Let me tell you what happened.
KAYLA: She's reading, by the way.
SARAH: I actually… I didn't really… I don't think I wrote that much, I just want to make… yeah, no, I just wrote what they were in all caps.
KAYLA: Oh, okay, good.
SARAH: I feel so strongly about this that I don't need notes.
KAYLA: Wow. Okay. Here we go. Buckle up.
SARAH: Everyone here knows, or many of you know, that I have been having allergy issues where I keep getting hives all the time and I'm itchy all the time and I'm so itchy and it's stupid.
KAYLA: Ah, my cat just jumped up the same time as your cat.
SARAH: Oh my God. My allergen-inducing cat. Cats on the table. Anyway, I, in December, I saw my allergist and my mom happened to be in town and my mom was like, hello, allergist, can we get her a referral to a rheumatologist? Because my mom is good at doctors. And they said, sure. So, they submitted it. Now, in the past, when I have received referrals, the person who referred it either called me to say, hey, it went through slash the doctor that I was referred to literally called me and was like, hey, you want to make an appointment?
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Or I received something in the mail. So, there was some indication that the referral had gone through. This did not happen. It had been like a couple of months and I was like, wait a minute. What happened to that referral?
KAYLA: Where is it?
SARAH: So, I look online on my health insurance login thing and like nothing shows up, it doesn't show any of my previous referrals. Like nothing, there's nothing. And so, I'm like, fuck, I think I have to call my insurance.
KAYLA: Not good.
SARAH: So, I called my insurance and I talked to this man who he was like, how are you? And I was like, good, how are you? And he was like, actually, I don't feel that well, but, you know, you got to grind. And I was like, great.
KAYLA: Great, just what you want to hear from your health insurance company.
SARAH: He was very friendly. But he told me he was like, oh, I see the problem, the problem is that your PCP, your primary care provider has to submit this referral, it can't be from your allergist. And I said, okay. So, I was supposed to go to my PCP literally two days later to get blood work done. Did I remember to ask them then? No. I remembered then the next day or the day after. And I was like, shit. So, I called my doctor and I said, hey, sorry, I was just here, I forgot to ask. Can you refer me to a rheumatologist? My allergist already did but my insurance said that you had to do it. And they said, sure.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: They put the referral in. I don't hear anything. A couple of weeks go by, like two weeks. And I'm like, hey. So, I call my doctor again. And I'm like, hey, here's the situation. What's up? And the girl who usually answers the phone, bless her heart, has no idea what rheumatology is. Every time I spoke to her, she was like, what? A what? And I had to spell it for her. Like, she does not know what a rheumatologist is.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And I was like, girl, you work at a doctor's office.
KAYLA: Yeah, that's tough.
SARAH: Girl. But they sent me to the person and the person looked at it. And on the doctor's side, they can see everything, they can see everything that has been put in, whereas I can see nothing.
KAYLA: Nothing.
SARAH: And she was like, oh, you need to have your allergist submit this. And I said, girl…
KAYLA: No, no. No, I don't.
SARAH: My insurance told me that it had to be my PCP. And she kind of pauses. And she goes, hmm.
KAYLA: Right.
[01:00:00]
SARAH: And she goes, okay. I'm going to have you talk to Mari. Mari is essentially their insurance guru. But she was like, Mari is not here right now but I'll have her call you later today and you can talk to her. Does Mari ever call me? No.
KAYLA: Of course not.
SARAH: So, this was Wednesday. On Friday, I call back. And I'm like, hey, can I talk to fucking Mari?
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And they were like, Mari is not in today, call Monday.
KAYLA: Does Mari have work? Does Mari work?
SARAH: So then on Monday, I call. And I say, hey, can I fucking talk to Mari? And they're like, Mari is on a call, just hold.
KAYLA: No.
SARAH: They said it was going to be five minutes, it was literally 30 seconds.
KAYLA: Okay, good.
SARAH: I get on the phone with Mari. Mari, once I get talking to her, is very helpful, actually.
KAYLA: Okay, so Mari is just very in demand, it seems.
SARAH: Yeah. And Mari says to me, okay, here's the problem. And I said, Mari, what? And she said, so your referral was submitted on December 10th by your allergist.
KAYLA: Oh, no.
SARAH: Your insurance approved it on December 10th, they approved it the day of. No one told me anything. I could not access this information on my login on the website. I didn't know shit. And when I called them asking about this referral, they were like, oh, you have to have your PCP put it in. They didn't say, oh, yeah, it was approved two months ago.
KAYLA: What the fuck!?
SARAH: And so, she tells me, she, the insurance lady at my PCP, is able to tell me the name of the doctor…
KAYLA: Oh my God
SARAH: That my insurance assigned me from a referral made by my allergist.
KAYLA: Jesus Christ!
SARAH: Meanwhile, I can't see shit. So, you think, okay, great, Sarah, you can see this allergist now. No, the referral has expired.
KAYLA: Right, right.
SARAH: Mari, bless her heart, she tells me exactly what I need to say to my allergist. Like she's like, tell them this. So, I call my allergist, they're on lunch.
KAYLA: Great.
SARAH: So, I wait 30 minutes, I call my allergist and I say, hi, I need you to reauthorize this. And she was like, yeah. And she looks at it and she was like, yeah, I can either try and re-up this one, or if that doesn't work, I'll just put in another one. And she's basically like, yeah, it should work. And I was like, okay. But if it doesn't work, you'll call me?
KAYLA: Yeah, please. God.
SARAH: And she was like, yeah. So now I'm hoping that they just assign me the same doctor, because I have the name of this doctor.
KAYLA: Are you going to have to call Mari again to check? Like, how are you going to know?
SARAH: I'm going in for an allergy shot on Thursday because I'm then leaving the country on Friday, I think instead tomorrow I'm going to call my allergist and say, hey, was it approved? Can you tell me what it says? Slash, I'm going to call the doctor that I was assigned and say, hi, I would like to make an appointment. But before I do that, you will run my insurance…
KAYLA: Yes. Yeah.
SARAH: And tell me if I am allowed to see you.
KAYLA: Yeah. Oh my God.
SARAH: So that's my one beef, my other beef is OnTrac, it is a delivery service for delivering packages.
KAYLA: I know this one. I feel like it's not a good one.
SARAH: No, it's not. Why else do you think it would be my beef?
KAYLA: That's a good point.
SARAH: This begins two weeks ago. My coworker says to me, Sarah, I hate to put this in your brain, but do you think all of your hives are maybe caused by mold? And I said, like, in my house or in my body? And she says both. She has a friend who has like mold toxicity that she's trying to get out of her system because there's mold in her house.
KAYLA: You've had wetness in your apartment.
SARAH: Yes. And her symptoms were a little different than mine but like it could theoretically be. And so, then I'm looking into this, and then I'm looking at everything in my apartment and taking pictures of it and sending it to my sister and saying, is this mold? And she was like, yeah, I think that might be mold. But it's like small stuff, it's like a small section of my bathtub or like a small section behind my sink, it's not like a significant amount.
KAYLA: But who knows about in your walls or in your floors?
SARAH: Yes. There has been water damage in my apartment.
KAYLA: I know.
SARAH: Not of any fault of my own.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: That has been dealt with and is supposedly fine.
KAYLA: But who is to say?
SARAH: Now, I did check… I was tested when they did my allergy prick test, they tested whether I'm allergic to molds, and I'm not.
KAYLA: Hmm.
SARAH: So, but if I have mold toxicity, if it's like in my body...
KAYLA: How do you test for that? Like blood test? How do you know if there's mold in you?
SARAH: I don't know, there's a special test you have to do, I don't know. I don't think that's it, and it's certainly not the only thing causing my problems. Like, it wouldn't be. But I was like, damn, okay, how do I remove the mold that I do have?
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: So, there's a spray that you can get that you have to use… You have to use PPE when you spray
KAYLA: Okay, strong.
SARAH: And then you leave it for 15 minutes and then you wipe it off and supposedly it takes the mold away. And I said, great, where can I buy this? None of the places near me had it in stock, and so I was going to have to ship it to myself. So, I was like, okay, where can I ship it to myself? The cheapest place where I could get it without getting like five gallons of it was Walmart. So, I said, okay, fine. And you have to have $35-worth of stuff in your cart to get free shipping. So, I said, okay, I need shampoo, whatever. Okay, now, the first shipment arrived last week. They said 35 bucks for free shipping, and then it came in two separate shipments, and I was like...
KAYLA: So, no.
SARAH: That one came fine, whatever. Then over the weekend on Saturday, I get a text from OnTrac Delivery Service. And they're like, we couldn't get into your building. And I'm like, okay, girl…
KAYLA: Oh my God, don't even get me started on that, don’t even get me freaking started.
SARAH: I know. And I was like, girl, if you were USPS or UPS or FedEx or Amazon, those all know… they can get into my building without my help.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: But this fuck ass company can't. And so, I immediately... There's a thing that I can put in and I'm like, hey, this is the code, this is how you get into my building. And I literally did it within 20 minutes of getting this notification.
KAYLA: No, they were long gone.
SARAH: And I was like, in a perfect world, they would just try again. But of course not.
KAYLA: No, no, no.
SARAH: And they're like, it can take up to 48 hours to process this. And I was like, great, fuck you.
KAYLA: Great.
SARAH: Now, this is where the second package comes in. A completely separate package from a completely different company. I think I told you last week, but I don't know if I told the pod about how I was getting a MagSafe wallet for my phone. And then when I was buying it, I got… a coupon code came up and it was Joe Rogan and I was like, what the fuck ever, I'm already buying this fucking thing. So that is also shipped by OnTrac shipping and delivery.
KAYLA: Great.
SARAH: And it was delayed by two days because whatever. And it was supposed to arrive on Sunday. And on Sunday, I get an email that says, it's here. And I'm like, great. And then I look at the email and it's like, it could be up to 48 hours before… And I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about?
KAYLA: So, it's not here.
SARAH: It was like, well, it's in a warehouse or whatever. And I was like, okay, well, I'm not in a warehouse or whatever. So, I go outside, it's not outside my door. I go down to where the mail is, it's not there. It's not in my mailbox either. And I'm like, hey, where the fuck is it? So, then I go and I look closer and I look on the thing and I click and there's a picture. And I say, great, there's a picture, I open the picture, it is an apartment building with this… It's the same apartment number as mine, it is not my building, it is another building, it is somewhere else. And I say, great. Mind you, I'm leaving the country in like less than a week.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: So, like I need to get this dealt with before I leave because if something arrives when I'm gone, like, you know.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And so, I put in a customer support thing and I'm like, hey, you sent it to the wrong fucking building, that's not my house.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And they were like, you'll hear from us within 48 hours. And I'm like, fuck you, and your mother.
KAYLA: Have you considered finding this apartment building?
SARAH: Kayla. Kayla. What I did next was I went on Google…
KAYLA: Right.
SARAH: And I snooped around because I was like, it can't be that far away from where I am.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: So, I snooped around at all the nearby like apartment buildings and complexes because I could tell it was indoors. So, I was like, okay. But I didn't recognize it. And so, I was like looking around and I was like on Google Maps, like street view.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And then there's this place across the street where I was like, it might be them, but I can't... All of the photos of the apartment building are… like, the main hallways and then the units, it doesn't show like the hallways to the units. And so, I'm like, it might be those. So, then I look, there's a 3D tour, okay, of one of the apartments. And I go in the 3D tour and I turn it around to look at the back of the front door. And I say, that is the same front door.
[01:10:00]
KAYLA: Oh my God.
SARAH: As the photo of my package. So, I say, I think I know where my fucking MagSafe wallet is.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm.
SARAH: So, I go across the street and I put in like the apartment number to like call. Someone lets me in, I don't know who let me in, but somebody buzzed me in. But then I go up to the door, I find the door, I knock, no one answers.
KAYLA: Nooo!
SARAH: I knock again, no one answers. I stand out there for a little while, some dog is barking at me, the neighbor sticks his head out and is like, what's going on? And I'm like, don't mind me. And so then I'm like, I need to leave this person a note, because it's not out anymore, they had brought it inside.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And I was like, I didn't think this far ahead, I don't have anything to leave a note with. So, then I'm wandering around the hallway of this apartment building. And I find that there's like a box with like, if you need like repairs done with papers in it. And so, I take a paper and I'm like, great, I can do this. I always have a pen on me, let me get my pen out.
KAYLA: It doesn't work?
SARAH: I didn't have a pen. And I'm wandering around and I'm trying to figure out what to do. I even asked a man if he had a pen
KAYLA: Wow
SARAH: And he either didn't or thought I was crazy and both are valid. And I'm like, looking… I could like get into the laundry room, I'm like, is there a pen in the laundry room? Just wandering around this fucking apartment building. And finally, I'm like, okay, I think I have to just go home, write this note, come back…
KAYLA: And come back.
SARAH: And hope I can get back in.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: But then I was like, wait, let me check that box one more time, the box had a pen in it the whole time.
KAYLA: Huh
SARAH: So, then I get a pen and I write a little note and I'm like, hey, I live across the fucking street, you got my package, if you have it, please text me, here's my phone number. And I fold it and I stick it in the door, then I leave. And then I don't hear anything for a while.
KAYLA: Nooooo!
SARAH: This was Sunday night and it was Monday, all of Monday I didn't hear anything. And I was like, I bet whoever lives there opened it up and was like, wow, this is cool, I'm going to keep it.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And then this morning, this morning I was running late to work as usual and I get a text from an unknown number that says, hey, this is Joe, I have your package. He's like, I'm sorry, I haven't been home a lot, but I have it. Do you want to come get it? And I was like, Joe, of course I do. If I had been on time leaving for work, I would have been long gone by then, but I wasn't.
KAYLA: Thank God.
SARAH: So, I said, Joe, I'm coming. And I went across the street and he met me and he gave it to me. And I was like, Joe, girl, thank you. And I leave. And now I have my MagSafe wallet.
KAYLA: Oh, it's gorgeous.
SARAH: But wait. Then I still have one more outstanding package, right? Okay?
KAYLA: Oh my God.
SARAH: So, I finally today, I get a response to my customer service complaint and it's an automated message that says, yes, it was delivered.
KAYLA: Oh, great.
SARAH: And I was pissed. So, I sent an email back being like, fuck you and your mother. That's not what I said, I'm too Midwestern-polite for that. I was like, listen, I got this out of my own ingenuity.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: I tracked this down.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And you fucking send me an automated response, I told you exactly what happened in my complaint, I told you what happened, and you sent me an automated fucking response that it was delivered. Yes, it was fucking delivered, I know it was, it was delivered to the wrong fucking building. And so, I was like, take some fucking responsibility. And I was like, I also have another outstanding package and they attempted to deliver it on Saturday. It's now Tuesday, they haven't even tried again yet.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: I, a couple of hours later, get an email, your package has arrived.
KAYLA: Ah
SARAH: Okay, great. I get home, it has been less than two hours since the package was delivered. We do sometimes have porch pirate problems here, but it hasn't been that bad recently, as far as I'm aware. And I was home within two hours of it being delivered. Okay?
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: I checked down by the mail room. I checked my mailbox, even though it wouldn't have even fit in my mailbox. I check in front of my door, nothing. Nothing. Now, the people at OnTrac have responded to my complaint being like, sorry, what's your tracking number for your other one? We can see where it is. And so, I said, okay, here's my fucking tracking number for my other one, it says it was delivered, it's not at my fucking house. But I was like, you know what? There's a non-zero chance it’s at Joe’s house.
KAYLA: It's with Joe?
SARAH: I gave them the code to get into my building, but like maybe they still, I don't know. So, before this podcast, after I got home, I went across the street and I was standing outside this apartment building, seeing if I could get in. And I was like, okay. So, then I put in Joe's apartment number and then it rang forever. He did not pick up, no one let me in. But I saw a lot of people have been going in and out the back door. And I said, I've passed the parking lot of where the people here park, it's gated. But a lot of people seem to be going in and out. So, I went around and someone had just pulled out of the parking lot, I like go in. There's a woman who's arriving at the same time as me, I just go in right behind her. I go in, I go down the hallway, I go to Joe's apartment. Is it there? No.
KAYLA: Ah
SARAH: So, then I left and then I came and I did the podcast.
KAYLA: And here we are. Wow.
SARAH: I don’t know where my fucking mold remover and my shampoo is. I'm out of shampoo now at this point, it's been so long.
KAYLA: What!?
SARAH: Those are my beefs.
KAYLA: Wow. Wow.
SARAH: Fuck OnTrac Delivery Service, they suck so bad.
KAYLA: I once did a similar thing with, I think it was DoorDash, they were like, your food was delivered. And then I went out and I said, no, it wasn't. So, I looked at the picture and I was like, that's not my house. And then I was looking at it more and I was like, I know where that is, that's down the street, I pass it every day. And so, I ran outside and I say, give me my food and I took it from their porch.
SARAH: One time someone tried… something was being delivered at my work and they delivered it like streets away.
KAYLA: Good.
SARAH: Like we're on an East West street, this was on a North South street, several streets away from our cross street.
KAYLA: Good, good, good.
SARAH: We're like, how the fuck did this happen? Yeah, so that's my beef. Sorry for like doubling the length of the podcast with that, but like I really…
KAYLA: No, it was important. It was good.
SARAH: Yeah. So now my house, I guess I’ll just… I will have keep having to breathe in mold spores because OnTrac Delivery Service is ass. And I don't know where that delivery is, it could be anywhere. And they didn't have a photo this time.
KAYLA: Ah
SARAH: Both of the other ones, the first Walmart delivery and then the this, the phone thing, the wallet thing, they had a photo, this time they didn't. So like, I have no idea where it is.
KAYLA: Good.
SARAH: It's not even like, oh, it was delivered to my house, but someone stole it, which like, there's nothing I can do about that, but then at least I know where it is.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: You can tell us about your beef, your juice, your experiences with OnTrac Delivery Dervice, if you work for OnTrac Delivery Service…
KAYLA: Don't.
SARAH: I just had a lot of mean thoughts, I did not externalize them.
KAYLA: It's very good of you.
SARAH: But I need you to pick that shit up. You need to work on that company or leave, those are your options.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: You can tell us about your beef, your juice, your social media… Your social media!? What!? On our social media @soundsfakepod on all the socials. We also have a Patreon, patreon.com/soundsfakepod, if you would like to help me pay for my rheumatologist.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: Patreon.com/soundsfakepod. Our $5 patrons who we're putting this week are Bronwyn Herron, Clark Fadoir, Jiro the Wolf, Arctic Enby, and Cinnamon Toast Punch. I could do with some Cinnamon Toast Crunch, personally, right now to make me feel better after this struggle. Our $10 patrons who are you promoting something this week are Elle Bitter who would like to promote normalizing the use of tone indicators /srs. Eric who would like to promote Queer ASL. My aunt Jeannie who would like to promote Christopher's Haven. And Johanna who would like to promote being kind to one another. Also, Kayla's dad who would like to promote JandiCreations.com. Our other $10 patrons are KELLER bradley, Maff, Martin Chiesl, Purple Hayes, Quartertone, Barefoot Backpacker, SongOStorm, Sydney Price, Val, Alastor, Ani, Arcnes, Benjamin Ybarra, Clare Olsen, Daniel Hutchinson, and Derick & Carissa. I realize now I didn't actually say my juice, my juice is I’m going to Ireland. Our $15 patrons are Ace who would like to promote the writer Crystal Scherer. Nathaniel White, who would like to promote NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com. Kayla’s aunt Nina who would like to promote katemaggartart.com, and Schnell who would like to promote accepting that everyone is different and that's awesome. Our $20 patrons are Changeling & Alex who would like to promote their company Control Alt Access (dot com). And Dr. Jacki, Dragonfly, my mom, and River who would like to promote literally anything but OnTrac Delivery Service. Thanks for listening, tune in not next Sunday, but the following Sunday for more of us in your ears.
KAYLA: And until then, take good care of your cows.
SARAH: See you in Ireland. I'm in Ireland right now, as you listen. Bye.
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