Ep 401: Demisexuality in The Love Hypothesis
SARAH: Hey, what's up? Hello! Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl (I'm Sarah, that's me.)
KAYLA: And a bi-demisexual girl (that's me, Kayla.)
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand.
KAYLA: On today's episode: Oversimplified Representation.
BOTH: Sounds fake, but okay.
SARAH: Welcome back to the pooooood!
KAYLA: My nose is itchy.
SARAH: I'm sorry to hear that. I'm ill.
KAYLA: Yes, that's true.
SARAH: But the show must go on, for both of us, under these conditions.
KAYLA: Under these terrible conditions. Some might say equally bad, perhaps even Kayla's is a worse condition.
SARAH: Yeah, I would say definitely equally bad.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Hello, everyone.
KAYLA: Hi.
SARAH: Do we have any housekeeping?
KAYLA: I do not think so.
SARAH: Okay, let's just do this. Kayla, what are we talking about this week?
KAYLA: This week, Sarah has written for us a manifesto.
SARAH: I have. So, I mentioned last week that I had thought of this, but then it was the 400th episode.
KAYLA: Yes, but it was 400.
SARAH: I'm glad that everyone was as disturbed by that photo of Todd as we were, by the way.
KAYLA: You guys, yeah, check the Discord for Todd. It really is… the more you look at it, the worse it is.
SARAH: Yeah, like how does that even happen?
KAYLA: It does look like a… it looks like a zombie hand coming out of the dirt, I think.
SARAH: Do you think I caught my sickness from Todd?
KAYLA: Probably just from looking at the illness, yeah.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Wait, the picture, the illness came… right.
SARAH: Through the picture.
KAYLA: Through the picture. I think I said illness.
SARAH: You know… I understood you.
KAYLA: That doesn't make it right, that perhaps makes it even more wrong.
SARAH: Wow!
KAYLA: Anyway
SARAH: So, I thought of this, and I wrote a long manifesto, and then Kayla was like, I don't even know if we should talk about that. And I was like, that's too bad, I've written a manifesto.
KAYLA: And here we are. I will say, I have done my research on the basis of what your manifesto is about. So, I feel…
SARAH: I read the thing that you texted me.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: So, I have done that.
KAYLA: I read it at work and I said, this is not for work.
SARAH: Well, let's get into that.
KAYLA: Let's get into it.
SARAH: Okay, what has been hot in the internet these days? The Love Hypothesis
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: Which is a movie on Amazon featuring Lili Reinhart and some guy.
KAYLA: So, Daisy Ridley’s husband.
SARAH: Oh, is that who that is?
KAYLA: Yeah, which is funny…
SARAH: That’s really funny
KAYLA: Because it's a Reylo fanfic and he's married to a Rey actress.
SARAH: Okay, so, The Love Hypothesis is based off of a book called The Love Hypothesis by Ali Hazelwood, which was originally Reylo fanfiction.
KAYLA: Rey and Kylo of Star Wars.
SARAH: From Star Wars
KAYLA: A ship that Sarah hates. So, we're starting off on a biased… and I think that's fair to tell everyone that we're starting from a biased place on Sarah's end.
SARAH: Don't worry, I acknowledge that in my manifesto.
KAYLA: Great. And that's really ethical and good of you.
SARAH: Which is funny because one of my closest friends in LA, my former roommate, is a Reylo.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: So very silly funny times.
KAYLA: It happens to the best of us.
SARAH: But yeah, so this is an Amazon rom-com based off of a book that used to be fanfiction.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: It's straight, of course, because Reylo is straight. Or it's hetero-presenting, I suppose.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Now, in both the fic and the book, which my friend who is a Reylo has read both the fic and the book.
KAYLA: Okay, I see
SARAH: The fic is not readily available online anymore, but if you know the right people, you can find it.
KAYLA: You can find it, yeah
SARAH: And so, she has read them both. She said that she preferred the fic. Interesting enough.
KAYLA: Interesting
SARAH: But in the fic and the book, the character of Rey, who becomes Olive is demisexual. It is not explicitly named, but it is very… for anyone who knows what demisexuality is, it's very clear that that is what is being conveyed.
KAYLA: Yeah, it's very clear. I would like to at some point read the excerpt that it is very clear in because I think it's actually very good.
SARAH: Do you want to just start with that?
KAYLA: Yeah, I can start with that.
SARAH: Because my manifesto was mainly about the movie, not about the book.
KAYLA: About the movie, yeah. But as we get into this talk about representation, I think it is good to show an example of something that I, as a demi, though it does not say the word, obviously, it would have been nice for them to say the word. But Ali Hazelwood does have aspec characters in a lot of her books
SARAH: Yes
KAYLA: Both with and without the official… like them identifying that way.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: I believe at some point in the book, like in Olive's inner monologue, she mentions like considering that she might be on the asexual spectrum. So that's as far as it goes as like saying the word. But the scene where it most poignantly comes up is like Chapter 16, which is the chapter; it's the big sex scene. And I've read it, I definitely didn't read it at work, no, I didn't.
SARAH: Ooh, never do that.
KAYLA: Never do that. So, in the scene… okay, so… okay, back up. It's a fake dating thing. Okay?
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: They're scientists at… like, they’re PhD and a postdoc, but it's fine that they're dating because they aren't in the same department or whatever. I don't know, you don't have to worry about it. I was recently in a bookstore and I overheard the bookseller talking to a girl about it. And she was like, but don't worry. Like that part is ethical, like, don't worry about that part.
SARAH: I know you are so concerned.
KAYLA: No, she was like, okay, good, because that was like kind of weird to me. And the girl was like, don't worry.
SARAH: I assume this happened in Boston?
KAYLA: Yeah. It happened at the romance bookstore next to Harvard, in Cambridge, Massachusetts, next to the town of Somerville where the polycules are legally protected.
SARAH: All of them.
KAYLA: All of Somerville, one giant polycule.
SARAH: One big polycule. You didn't realize that when you moved. It's that you're just… you're a part of a polycule now.
KAYLA: Here I am, the Mecca. Okay, so, in this scene is when they have sex for the first time. And so, to set the scene for what I'm about to read, because I'm not going to read you a sex scene, they start… they like initiate… like she's like, I want to have sex with you. He's hesitant at first because he's like, what if you hate me? We said no sex, whatever. Then he's like, I'm into it. Then they start like making out some light sexual things start happening and he's like, why are you so tense?
SARAH: Yes
KAYLA: Okay, begin.
SARAH: You're telling me to begin?
KAYLA: No, I'm finding my…
SARAH: I was like, wait, what? I thought you were about to read something.
KAYLA: I'm telling me to begin. Okay, wait, I have to go back a page.
SARAH: Kayla got lost.
KAYLA: I got lost in the sauce. Okay. So, he's like, oh, why are you tense? Does it hurt? Whatever. Okay. Consent. King.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: Very good consent in the book.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Okay. I'm kidding.
SARAH: Which is crazy because Kylo…
KAYLA: You know what I'm saying?
SARAH: I know it's fiction.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: She says tense… Why are you so tense, Olive? I'm like screaming. Why are you so tense, Olive? You've done this before, right? Yes. She was not sure what compelled her to continue. Any idiot could see from a mile away that it was a terrible idea, but there was no room left for lies now that they were standing so close. So, she confessed a couple of times in college. I just realized… I'll just skip the part. Adam went immobile, completely motionless. His muscles flexed, coiled strong under her palms. And then they stayed like that, tense and still as he stared up at her, which is weird because he's taller than her, Olive. But it doesn't matter.
SARAH: Is he sitting and she's not? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter, keep going.
KAYLA: But it doesn't matter, she hastened to add, because he was already shaking his head, pulling away from her. It really didn't matter, not to Olive, and therefore it shouldn't matter to Adam either. I can figure it out. I've learned Whole-Cell Patch Clamp in a couple of hours, sex can't be much harder. It's very STEM, the book.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: And I bet you do this all the time so you can tell me how to. You'd lose... The room was chilly. His fingers... We'll skip that part. What? You'd lose your bet. He sighed, wiping his hand down his face… Skip that part.
SARAH: There was a bet involved for them, the fake dating...
KAYLA: There was not. He was saying… she was saying, I bet you do this all the time. And he's saying you would lose that bet.
SARAH: Oh.
KAYLA: I was just skipping some graphic parts where they were talking about his fingers.
SARAH: See, I didn't even... Because I did read this part. I didn't even realize that. I was like, oh, was there a bet?
KAYLA: I had to reread that to understand.
SARAH: Okay.
KAYLA: Okay, skip that part. Olive, I can't. Of course you can. He shook his head. I'm sorry. What? No. I... You're basically avert. I'm not, Olive. I am not. But so close to it that... And this is very woke, get ready.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: No, that's not the way it works. Virginity is not a continuous variable. It's categorical; binary, nominal, dichotomous, ordinal, potentially. I'm talking about chi-squared, maybe Spearman's correlation, logistic regression…
SARAH: Okay, STEM girly
KAYLA: And that stupid sigmoid function and... It had been weeks and it still took her breath away. The uneven tilt of his smile, how unanticipated... Okay, blah, blah, blah, sappy, sappy, sappy. Kiss, kiss, kiss. Okay. Olive, he said inching back. If for any reason sex is something that you're not comfortable with or you'd rather not have outside of a relationship, then… no, no, it's nothing like that. She took a deep breath looking for a way to explain herself. It's not that I want to not have sex, I just don't particularly want to have it. There's something weird about my brain and my body. And I don't know what's wrong with me, but I don't seem to be able to experience attraction like normal people. I tried to just do it to get it over with. And the guy I did it with was nice, but the truth is that I don't just... I just don't feel any... She closed her eyes; this was difficult to admit.
[00:10:00]
KAYLA: I don't feel any sexual attraction unless I actually get to trust and like a person, which for some reason never happens or almost never happens. It hadn't not in a long time, but now I really like you and I really trust you. And for the first time in a million years, I want to. And then they kiss and then they fuck; several times.
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: So that to me doesn't say the word demisexual, which like, unfortunate.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: But it's like a picture-perfect representation and I think also that description happening in the middle of a sex scene makes it seem more realistic to me. Of like, that is a natural way that would come up between people of like in a way it should come up of him being like, you don't seem comfortable, what's going on? Like backing out, asking for consent again. And then her like explaining that, right?
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: A very idealized thing to happen, but like, you know.
SARAH: Sure. Well, and each chapter starts with a hypothesis, a love hypothesis.
KAYLA: Indeed.
SARAH: And the one at the beginning of this chapter is, despite what everyone says, sex is never going to be anything more than a mildly enjoyable activity. Oh, italicized, oh
KAYLA: The italicized oh, yeah.
SARAH: And I think that's good. Like, I think it's well dealt with. And yes, I've seen a couple of people with certain complaints, but like I think on the whole, that is well done.
KAYLA: Yeah. I mean, that should be said, representation, it's never going to be perfect for everyone. It could be like an asexual person or like a demisexual person themselves writing the rep explicitly. And still some people aren't going to jive with it. Like, that's just… you know.
SARAH: Yeah. It's the way of the world, not everyone is going to be happy.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Okay. So, getting that out of the way, we've… great, good job Ali Hazelwood.
KAYLA: I just think it's neat.
SARAH: I also think it's neat and I think it's good to talk about. That brings us to the movie.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: The word demisexual is explicitly used in the movie.
KAYLA: Yeah. Which we do love.
SARAH: We do love. We do love that about it. And I found out about this because I saw pretty much universal praise for it on my timeline, largely from demi folks, which I think, yes, praise for using the word. Great, good, absolutely. And I think we need to show our appreciation when those identities are explicitly named so that we encourage people to keep doing it.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But… and this is something that I have not really seen a lot of people talking about. Like it actually came up for me because I saw a tweet from somebody I follow, that ended up getting… Let's see how many likes it has right now, twenty-one thousand likes. I did not see it when it had twenty-one thousand likes, I was in on the ground floor.
KAYLA: OG.
SARAH: Indeed. And it was celebrating how great and exciting it was to see this representation named. And in this tweet, the user, who is herself demi, screenshotted and shared the brief conversation in which it is brought up in the film.
KAYLA: Yeah. I will say some of the screenshots and clips I've seen don't show the full thing. It cuts off some of it that I think makes it slightly better. So, I don't know what clip you have.
SARAH: Interesting. Okay, I would be interested to hear…
KAYLA: I wonder if I could find a clip and just play it so we can hear it.
SARAH: Indeed
KAYLA: Because there's also an audio component that is one of the things that I've seen that people don't like. Like of the criticism I have seen, it's like not a verbal thing, it's like a…
SARAH: Interesting. Okay…
KAYLA: Let me see if I can just find like a TikTok of it.
SARAH: Yeah, because I would like to see… Yeah, TikTok is probably a good place to look for it, because every time I've like googled it, it has just been like think pieces about it.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And it's like, no, I want to see the...
KAYLA: I think I found it. Let me try… I'm going to try to just like play it out loud.
SARAH: Okay
KAYLA: I'm going to start from the beginning.
[Background audio starts]
MALCOLM (JABOUKIE): I know it's rough out there for you demisexuals.
OLIVE: What’s a demisexual?
MALCOLM (JABOUKIE): You know, like you have to have an emotional bond with someone before… you have to be in love to have sex.
OLIVE: Isn't that what everyone is looking for?
MALCOLM (JABOUKIE): Oh, my God. Wait, you're serious? That is adorable.
[Background audio ends]
KAYLA: Did you hear it?
SARAH: Mostly, yes.
KAYLA: There was a weird background noise. Ah, I liked it, that's okay.
SARAH: So, for those of you who are like, I just heard things and I have no idea what any of this means.
KAYLA: Rip the clip and put it in the podcast.
SARAH: Okay, but we should still explain the context.
KAYLA: Okay, fine.
SARAH: Olive is talking to her friend Malcolm, aka Jaboukie.
KAYLA: Wait, really?
SARAH: Yeah, it's Jaboukie.
KAYLA: That's so funny. Oh, wait… Okay, never mind.
SARAH: Who did you think I was talking about?
KAYLA: I don't know.
SARAH: Okay. And he says to her, he's like, “I know it's rough out there for you demisexuals.” And she goes, “what's a demisexual?” And then in what you just heard, he says, like, you have to have an emotional bond. And then he kind of cuts himself off. And then he says, you have to be in love to have sex.
KAYLA: Yeah, to me, I read it as him starting to say, like, oh, you have to have an emotional bond too. And it is kind of like a dot, dot, dot. I read it as he's not seeing recognition for her. And so that's why he changes what he's saying. But that's maybe an optimistic interpretation of that.
SARAH: Yeah. And it's interesting, because the post I saw on Twitter that had those screenshots, did not include…
KAYLA: The first part.
SARAH: The first part. It just goes straight to, “you have to be in love to have sex.”
KAYLA: And that's what… because, yeah, that’s what I saw initially. And that's what you saw initially, I remember you sending it to me and being like, that's not it. And I was like, yeah, it's not.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: The thing most commonly I've seen people upset with is him laughing.
SARAH: Mm, interesting. See, that didn't bother me.
KAYLA: Yeah…
SARAH: For me, it's like, oh, like, like, it's just kind of like an awkward… Let me watch the scene. Hold on.
KAYLA: Yeah. I mean, I think watching it maybe could come off as a little more malicious. I mean, I think it's… I don't even read it as him laughing at her identity more so as like her… I don't want to say ignorance, but like her being like, oh, isn't that what everyone wants? And he's like, ha ha ha, girl, like, no, everyone out here is a hoe
SARAH: Yeah. Like, that's how I take it just watching now
KAYLA: Right. But I can understand why someone wouldn't like that, especially if they have…
SARAH: It’s a pretty big laugh.
KAYLA: It's a pretty big laugh. And if you're someone who has a personal experience with coming out to someone and having them have like a negative joking reaction, then I can see why that would be like, that's a little too close to home for me.
SARAH: Yeah. So, I think there is some… going back to the definition, I think there is some nuance to it that wasn't conveyed in this tweet that I saw.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But none of the… like, all of the reactions to this tweet were like, oh, my God, I'm so glad to see… like, they didn't… many of the people who saw this tweet also had not seen the movie.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And so, they didn't have that extra context of him saying the emotional connection, cuts off.
KAYLA: Yeah. I will also say the scene I read from the book of them talking about it does not exist in the movie. Like they have sex, obviously, but the sex scene is like much shorter. They don't have like the dialogue in the middle of it, so…
SARAH: Like this is the demi representation in the movie.
KAYLA: This is it, yeah. There's maybe some other like smaller references of things, but like that's really it.
SARAH: Yeah, that's the bulk of it. Which Malcolm, I absolutely relate to assigning your friend demisexuality.
KAYLA: And we've all been there…
SARAH: Been there. But when I read that tweet and I read those words, my first thought was like, that's not what demisexuality is.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: The words being, you have to be in love to have sex.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: It certainly is for some people, but it's very reductive.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And in my mind, that makes it not a good definition. So, the basic broad definition is it's, demisexuality is a sexual orientation where a person experiences sexual attraction only after forming a strong emotional bond with someone.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: So, it's not necessarily you have to be in love.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: It differs for every person what that strong emotional bond means and how long it takes to get there.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: And then the sexual attraction is about attraction, not about…
KAYLA: Not if you decide to have sex with them in the end.
SARAH: If you choose to have sex with them.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: So, just to be clear that like…
KAYLA: Which you can have sex without being sexually attracted to someone.
SARAH: Yes, you can, you can.
KAYLA: You can actually do anything.
SARAH: Yes. But because that is the more expansive definition, I just want to highlight that so you understand why I find this definition to be reductive.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: Here are the disclaimers about me.
KAYLA: Right.
SARAH: I have not seen the movie in full.
KAYLA: I haven't either.
SARAH: Fully honest about that. I have seen that little bit of the clip, I have seen other like little clips…
KAYLA: I've seen… let me sell you, I've maybe seen the whole movie at this point through TikTok; I've seen a lot of it.
SARAH: Yeah. But like it really is from what I understand this one brief mention talking about demisexuality.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And I do think that it's good that it's just like a minor thing. It's not a big deal. It's like a little factoid about her.
KAYLA: Yeah. In the context of her character, I think… like, her character is very much like does it kind of awkward, like doesn't have a big dating life. Like that's the reason she starts fake dating this guy. So, I think it's not like it's totally out of the blue or out of her character either. I think it just kind of adds color to the situation.
SARAH: Yeah. And I think it's great that this is in a rom-com.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
[00:20:00]
SARAH: Because people who are on the aspectrum are still capable of having romance and sex in whatever ways works for them, cool.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And I don't have the beef; I don't have beef with the way it's brought up or the way it's otherwise conveyed.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: My bump is just on some of the language that is used in the definition. And maybe in critiquing this one small thing, I am bringing what some people might reasonably consider like language policing into this…
KAYLA: Sure
SARAH: Which is not my intention. And maybe you just think I'm an overbearing pessimist, you know? Like, maybe I'm a hater and I have a billion preloaded biases because this was originally a Reylo fanfic and I don't like Reylo because it's a hetero relationship and I don't care about the straights. Because I read some excerpts from the smut in the book that made me go, ugh.
KAYLA: I liked the smut in the book.
SARAH: Including the line about like his...
KAYLA: The butter thing?
SARAH: The butter knife thing.
KAYLA: It's not my favorite, but I think that most smut has a level of cringe to it that you just kind of have to get past.
SARAH: I really didn't like the butter knife thing.
KAYLA: And that's fair. I didn't love it either. But like I said, there are certain things that you just have to be like, well, anyway.
SARAH: If you want to know what that is, just look it up, you'll find it, people talk about it.
KAYLA: Yeah, it's… yeah, it's fine.
SARAH: It's on the internet. I didn't want to like say it on the podcast.
KAYLA: No, I don't think we should.
SARAH: Yeah. And all of those things might be true about me like being like, mm, mm, poo poo.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And like you as the listener or even you as the Kayla might in good faith disagree with me here. And like that's fine as long as you have a reason for the way you feel that way, an argument for it. But I just saw no one talking about it. And that's not to say that no one is, but it never came across my timeline.
KAYLA: Yeah. The majority of what I have seen is positive, I will say.
SARAH: Right. And I don't mean to imply that I'm like the first person who has ever noticed or critiqued it.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But it just kind of bothered me that it was so universally positive, which on one hand is good because yes, great representation. But I think it's fair to critique that representation.
KAYLA: Sure.
SARAH: And so, it bothered me that I didn't see people talking about it so much that me, noted hater of online discourse…
KAYLA: Is here to join
SARAH: Is willingly lighting a flame right now.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: So, here's my manifesto, as it were, about why I'm not a way of the fan that they defined demisexuality in a film, how I would do it differently and why it matters. We're getting actionable here.
KAYLA: I love a step one, two, three.
SARAH: Okay, so, my primary beef with the definition, which again, he says… he starts to say, you need an emotional connection. He cuts himself off and says, you have to be in love to have sex. As a reminder, that's what it is.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: So, my primary beef with it is that it's overly simplistic. It projects one singular possible experience of demisexuality onto every demi in the world. And depending on what demi people we’re talking about, it's not necessarily inaccurate to all of them. It might be very accurate to Olive and that might maybe part of the reason why he said it this way.
KAYLA: Right.
SARAH: But the definition itself is not all encompassing. And this is… I was trying to explain why I was annoyed with this to a friend who was allo. And this is an imperfect analogy, but it was kind of the best I could come up with, which was if someone asked for a definition of what a Black person is and your response was, someone from Africa. Which, yes, in some cases, but there are a lot of Black people who would not consider themselves African, who have never been to Africa, et cetera. And then there are people who self-identify as being from Africa who would not self-identify as being Black, white South Africans, Egyptians, Moroccans, et cetera. So even though in some cases, someone from Africa might be an accurate definition of what is a Black person, it's not a particularly good definition on the whole because it's not all-encompassing.
KAYLA: I think that makes sense. I mean, I, speaking as a white person, but I've definitely heard… like, I've had conversations with people who are like, I hate when people call me an African-American because I… like, my family has slave heritage and I don't know… like, we don't know where we're from. So, like I don't identify as African. So anyway, yeah, I think that… again, as a white person, I think that makes sense as an analogy.
SARAH: Right. Imperfect analogy, there is not going to be a perfect analogy, but that was kind of the best way I could think to describe it to an allo who like couldn't understand.
KAYLA: It’s like how every square is a rectangle…
SARAH: Is a rectangle but not every rectangle is a square.
KAYLA: But no rectangles… whatever that one is.
SARAH: Yes. And so, in this same way, you have to be in love to have sex might accurately describe some of the demisexuals, it might accurately describe Olive in the film, but it does not accurately describe all demisexuals because some may be aro and being in love, as it were, is not on the table for them.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But feeling close to and emotionally intimate with a partner could be enough to experience that sexual attraction.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And there are people who might look at those words in that order of, you have to be in love to have sex, and say, well, couldn't that also apply to people who aren't demi, but choose not to have sex until a certain milestone in a relationship for religious reasons?
KAYLA: Sure
SARAH: Because that sentence doesn't really address attraction, it addresses action.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: To which you might say, Sarah, demisexuality is complicated, this is a side conversation in a rom-com, you can't expect them to get into the nitty gritty. It's really hard to visually convey an identity like that without the dialogue being on the nose and cringy and feel like a lecture or a polemic, to which I say, I know.
KAYLA: What I will say, I think, yes, in most stories and fiction and writing, it would be cringy and too on the nose. In this book and film in particular, they do a lot of very cringy, specific talking about science.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: Like what I read from the book about her being like, I understood clump, whatever the first cell, whatever. They go on those little tangents like all the time in the book where they just like throw in random science shit.
SARAH: Yeah. Because the author is… that is what she did before she was an author; she was a science professor
KAYLA: Yeah. And they portray these characters as very STEM-focused, very nerdy, very technical. And like her friends are also scientists in her lab; all of the main characters in this book are scientists. So, I don't actually think it would be unreasonable for these characters to get very technical with it.
SARAH: Yeah, it would make sense for them to view it scientifically.
KAYLA: Right. I think… like, you could even make it into a thing of like, oh, to get all technical with it… Like, in the part in the book where she's talking about virginity and she's like, it's binary, it's whatever. That is a perfect way to talk about virginity in a very like, ‘woke’ way of like virginity is a construct or it's a whatever. And they make it into their very like sciencey talk. Like she has already done it. And again, this is the book, she's doing a great job over there.
SARAH: Yeah. But I still think no matter what, you know, you could say like, you don't want to be like super on the nose about it in the film. Like, it'll come off as like shoved in, to which I say, I know. Do you think I don't know that? I am a writer. I have written aspec characters in screenplays. I have written and rewritten how that is broached because without the benefit of internal narration that you have in prose, both first person and third, like close third, it is not easy to make the introduction of aspec characters feel both natural and accurate, it is very hard to do.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But in my mind, there is a really easy fix in this instance, which…
KAYLA: Is Google.
SARAH: No.
KAYLA: Okay, I just came up with another idea. My first idea… you're not fixing it, I am. I'm not a writer. First, get really scientific with it. Second, she goes, what's a demisexual? He goes, da da da da da, Google's on his phone, shows her, reads her the definition.
SARAH: Yeah, there's that. Or… okay, so the first time I read this, I didn't read it right and I thought that she was the one saying you have to be in love to have sex. So, if that was the case, which it's not, but we're starting here. If that was the case, all I would want is to have the words for me added.
KAYLA: Ah
SARAH: For me, I have to be in love to have sex. Like, all I want is to clarify that it is not a hard and fast rule, and there is not a single way to experience demisexuality. You don't need to whip out a dictionary definition to give 15 examples, although as you just noted, it would make sense in context for them to just whip out Google. All you have to do in my mind is to be clear that being in love as a threshold for sexual attraction or having sex is one option of many. Maybe it's the simplest, maybe it's the most common, I don't even know. All I want is a tiny acknowledgement that there is not one universal way to be demi. Now, I understand that in this context, it is her roommate Malcolm, who he himself I don't believe is demi, who is explaining to her what the word means. Okay, we can work with that. All he has to say is, oh, my friend said that for them, it means they have to be in love to have sex.
KAYLA: Mm
[00:30:00]
SARAH: Like, make it about a specific person, and that's their experience. Who is that friend? It doesn't matter, we don't have to know, it's irrelevant.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: We could say, my friend said that for them, it means they have to be in love to have sex. I do still have a note on the phrasing, which is that to have sex is confusing. Because, what? You're banned from having sex until you're in love by the demi police?
KAYLA: Right
SARAH: Like, who's enforcing that? You can physically have sex if you haven't reached whatever threshold of intimacy…
KAYLA: I do fear you might be getting a little too nitty-gritty on that one.
SARAH: I know, I know, but… okay, listen, let me do my thing.
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: I would say to want sex is a better way to phrase that while keeping the conversation casual and not in the weeds. So, it would be like, my friend said that for them, it means they have to be in love to want sex. Are there ways to further clarify it to make it bulletproof? Yeah.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I mean, you could say, they have to be in love with their partner to want sex with them.
KAYLA: Right
SARAH: But I wouldn't advise adding much more than that because in the context of a conversation between friends, it would be clunky and weird.
KAYLA: Yeah. But again, I don't think it would, be because they're scientists.
SARAH: Right, but let's pretend they're not.
KAYLA: Sure.
SARAH: But I think that has a decent balance of accuracy while also maintaining a natural flow of conversation. I understand that this is semantics. And it seems stupid to argue about a couple of words. And I do think on the whole that these words being in the film, the word demisexual being in the film, even as they are, is a huge win for demisexuality and the aspec community.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I've seen so many posts of people being so excited to see themselves on screen. People being like, oh, wait, I feel the way that Olive does. Hold on. Wait a minute. Like, am I this? I don't want to poo poo on that because I think that is important. But I do hope that the weirdly semantic critique I'm giving, if in the unlikely event it ever makes it to the ears of anyone who’s involved in making the movie, I hope that my critique is taken as intended, which is not as an attack, but as constructive criticism for my fellow aspec person, because I think the phrasing matters.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And when I was talking to an allo friend about this, she said, well, maybe his character is well-meaning, but doesn't really know. To which I say, okay, yeah, that might be true. I mean, it seems because he started saying something and then cut himself off, he does really know. But like, let's imagine that he doesn't really know.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But there is so little demi-representation in film and TV. This is a huge movie based off of a popular book that the BookTalk girlies love.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm. The movie got a ton of press; it has been huge on the press circuit.
SARAH: Starring a big name. They've done a bunch of premieres, even though it's an Amazon movie. So, it's not even in theaters.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: This movie is going to be a lot of people's first introduction to demisexuality.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: And that's fucking amazing. Like, even if the movie itself is not really for me, like, I want that, I want varied and diverse representations of aspec entities in every genre, I want that. But because it's going to be the first introduction of demisexuality to so many people, I don't think you can be playing fast and loose with that shit.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And I don't want to discourage people from highlighting explicitly aspec characters because they worry it's going to be too complicated or hot button or anything, like, that's the last thing I want, I want to see aspecs everywhere. But what I am saying is that until this shit is mainstream, there is a certain amount of responsibility in conveying it and in explaining aspec identities to the broader public. Individuals can get it wrong, but your film as a whole cannot.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: If someone gets it wrong early in the movie, they need to be corrected before the credits roll. And we've talked on this podcast about how it takes a bit of time until, like, mainstream gay movies, for example, are allowed to be bad without reflecting on the prospect of all future gay movies. Because you have execs that will say, well, we tried it, it didn't work, let's not do it again. When it's not because it was gay that it failed, it was because it was just poorly executed in one way or another.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: It's not right, but it's the reality. Hollywood will make a billion more action movies no matter how god-awful the last one was, but they're not willing to extend that same grace and optimism to stories about marginalized groups. And I think we ought to think about representing aspecness in TV and film in a similar way. If allos get locked in on an incorrect or incomplete or oversimplified definition of what we are, suddenly they're making false overgeneralizations about all aspecs. And that has a real impact on real people in the real world, not just in the fiction that we watch on our screens. So, until the general public, or at least a good portion of it, has a decent and accurate grasp on aspec identities, until that blessed, blessed day that there are enough movies and TV shows in the zeitgeist that explicitly represent asexuality that it's no longer a big thing every time, every time we do the little precarious work of bringing our identities to the fore, we have to be very, very careful about how we carry out that representation. The aspec community is a deeply misunderstood, maligned community, both inside and outside of queer circles. We've all seen it, we've all experienced it. Our identities are complex and uncommon and feel foreign to so many allos in this world. Sometimes it feels like, oh, of course, like we're in this bubble of like, well, of course, yeah, like everyone. But out in the world, we're still uncommon and confusing to people. And every misrepresentation of us and our experiences and our needs, whether willful or not, compounds upon itself. It builds the foundation for and reinforces harmful stereotypes about us. And so, the way we present ourselves to the rest of the world and the rare instances where the rest of the world might actually see us, such as in this movie, matters. Now, do I think you have to be in love to have sex is nearly as harmful as some of the other ways aspecs have been inaccurately portrayed out in the world? No, like not even close. This is so tame.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And maybe for some people, it won't be harmful at all. Like it'll serve as their gateway into the community where they will ultimately learn a definition of demisexuality that is more expansive and more broadly accurate. But I would wager that the group of people who choose to take this as a learning moment and voluntarily dive deeper is a pretty small minority of the people who will watch this film. And that's part of the reason why I want to address this with this film now, because, look, the movie is successful. No matter what I say about it, it is successful, people are watching it, people are talking about it. Our tiny podcast is not going to bring this movie down. Okay? We're not going to be...
KAYLA: What do you mean?!
SARAH: We are not going to be the reason that some studio exec nixes the explicit mention of an aspec identity in a future work. Like, no. And this is a relatively small and semantic note I have, all things considered. But I think we need to address the issue behind it before it has the chance to balloon into something bigger and before anything really harmful ends up out there. Because next time there might not be a demi person in the room at all. And like, wouldn't that be a miracle? Allos putting an aspec on the screen just because we exist
KAYLA: Sure, just because
SARAH: Just because we're here, not because some aspec is pushing to be fucking seen for once. But we need to make clear that in the future, accuracy and well-roundedness and nuance in the way that we talk about aspec identities, especially to the laymen out there, matters. And people can't be treating it with carelessness. And I don't want to, like, pile on to this movie in particular. It's like, oh, you did it bad. I think this is just the first time it has hit the mainstream in such a big way.
KAYLA: Definitely, yeah.
SARAH: And so, I think it's important that we talk about how it's doing that. So, I've said all this shit. Here I am. I am volunteering myself as an aspec film and TV writer to be your consultants.
KAYLA: Hire Sarah!
SARAH: This is a PSA to the entire film and TV industry, video games, novels, any of it. I will do it, I am literally known at my workplace as the logic police. This is a skill of mine, just let me know. But I would also suggest having at least one other aspec consultant look at your scripts, ideally from a different background than me or whoever that first consultant is, who might catch things that the first consultant wouldn't because of their experience. Because maybe the author of this book, Ali Hazelwood, whose identity I'm not positive of, but who involves aspec characters enough in her work that I assume she's probably somewhere under the umbrella.
KAYLA: I have no idea, she seemed well…
SARAH: I’m guessing
KAYLA: Yeah, there's a lot of aspec rep in her book, so I wouldn't be surprised.
SARAH: Yeah. Maybe she had eyes on and approval of the script. I'm not sure how much power she did or didn't have. Usually, for a first-time adaptation, the book author would have little to no input. But with how big the book was on BookTalk, maybe she was able to negotiate more, I don't know. But I want as many aspec guys on this kind of stuff as possible.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And one final note, to some people, everything I've said in this episode might just exemplify everything people hate about the aspec community and our identities, which is like, it's so complicated, it's so many words.
KAYLA: Yeah
[00:40:00]
SARAH: You have to walk on eggshells to say the right thing or else the woke mafia snipes you. Which like, okay, I will take that criticism, I understand where it's coming from. But I don't think rolling over and willfully misrepresenting ourselves just to make allos feel more comfortable is the answer to that. I think we have to make ourselves big and real enough and omnipresent enough that they have no choice but to respect us. And conveying ourselves as accurately as possible so they know without a shadow of a doubt who we are and how expansive our coalition is, is a fundamental building block in making that a reality. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
KAYLA: Yay! My thoughts…
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: The thing I was thinking about earlier that I saved for the ‘Why It Matters’ section is I have seen through this podcast, online, whatever, a lot of people talk about that they came across a word from the aspec spectrum at some point in their life and saw a certain definition that did not really fit with them. And so, then they cast it off and were like, oh, that must not be for me then. And then it took them years to come back and find another definition or a different label within the community that worked. And they were like, oh, I get it. So that's what I was thinking a lot about in this. I will say, for whatever reason, I feel slightly less passionate about Sarah than this.
SARAH: That’s silly, that’s silly-funny
KAYLA: I don't know if it's like the writer angle or what, but it's weird because I'm the demi one.
SARAH: Yeah, like I'm also saying all of this not being demi. So, like…
KAYLA: But I think… I don't think you're wrong to criticize though. I think… and I don't think people are wrong to celebrate either. I think it has to be a careful mix, right?
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Because I think it is right to be excited and to be grateful that we are in a huge mainstream piece like this. Like, that is something to celebrate. That is not something, especially in the current political climate, like, that is a huge celebration that is rare and that should not be taken for granted.
SARAH: It wasn't mentioned by name in the book, but they chose to say its name in the movie, and that's important.
KAYLA: It is. They made a lot of very big, very good and brave decisions when it came to this. Like you cannot, for all of the criticisms, you can't overlook it. They did do some things right.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: At the same time, I don't think that one needs to be overly grateful and feel that you can't criticize it because it's like, oh, well, I should just be thankful that this happened at all. So yeah, maybe it's not perfect, but I'll just keep that to myself because I don't want to scare people away from doing it again, right? Like, I think it does have to be the careful mix of thank you, that was great, I'm very excited that this happened.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Here's where I'm hoping we go in the future from this. Because this is the first time this has happened.
SARAH: Basically. I mean, I guess like in Heartstopper there has been some aspec, but it was in later seasons.
KAYLA: I can't think of a demi one specifically though. Like, there has definitely been specific ace ones like BoJack Horseman, Secondary Education, Heartstopper.
SARAH: Is BoJack… is he Demi?
KAYLA: No, he's ace. Or is he aro? No, he's ace.
SARAH: I don't remember what his identity is.
KAYLA: I can’t… I think he's ace straight
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Which like that's another one. At the time it was a really big deal, but there also were criticisms of like, hey, this is some weird… like, this isn't quite right or whatever.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: So, I think it's important to be like, this is a huge first milestone, but we can always do better. Like, think about the Ellen episode where she came out as gay, right? Huge, huge milestone for gay media. Looking back, it probably was kind of bad and terrible, but that doesn't take away from it being like a huge historic step.
SARAH: Right. And I just… like, again, I don't want to pile on to this one specific film or specific author, it's just that because the writer…
KAYLA: It's just the only one
SARAH: It's just the only one. And I think it's important to be accurate. And I think there are ways to do that that don't feel like you're reciting a dictionary definition. And it's important to do that and embrace that.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Because otherwise people, you know, they end up thinking weird things about us.
KAYLA: It also is just like, not calling this lazy writing, but I think a lot of the issues that we have talked about in the past with fiction around romance is just lazy writing of like, oh, we need a conflict for this. Let's break up the characters this season so they can get back together, whatever, right? Using it as a more broad example, I think with romantic relationships, like, let's just put some… you know? And again, not saying this particular instance was lazy writing, I don't know what goes on.
SARAH: Oh, like you're saying that people just throw an aspec identity in there as some spice, as like a hurdle in a relationship?
KAYLA: No.
SARAH: I was like, what?
KAYLA: No, I mean the like, instead of stopping to take care and do the research of like, okay, what is the most accurate thing? Or like, let's get a consultant in here to just be like, well, it's whatever, let's just like… which, you know, I get it's a big movie, probably it wasn't their biggest concern, but you know.
SARAH: But they had Amazon money, they had Lili Reinhart money…
KAYLA: They did, they could have bought a consultant, certainly.
SARAH: And maybe they did have a consultant.
KAYLA: I don’t know
SARAH: I think you should have 15.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: You should give it to every aspec person you've ever heard of and be like, hey, Tim Gunn.
KAYLA: Hey…
SARAH: Actually, I would not go to… I don't know how informed Tim Gunn is about this.
KAYLA: I thought Tim Gunn wasn't ace. Didn't he ultimately decide that…?
SARAH: I don't know.
KAYLA: I thought he ultimately was like, just kidding.
SARAH: I have no idea. But yeah, like that's why it's like, I think you need to have lots, like several sets of eyes on it.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And like, even if you're doing like a small indie, tiny movie, not that I'm being like, yeah, you should get people in and have them work for free to consult. If you're doing an Amazon movie and you are consulting, you better fucking pay them a decent amount of money.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But if you're like an indie film and you can't afford that, a lot of people would still be willing to do it because it’s important work
KAYLA: Yeah, there's a lot of people that would be very excited to do it.
SARAH: Yeah. So, if you come to me saying, will you please consult? I will say, what is the budget for your film?
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: And then if it's under a certain number, I will say, I will do it for free. And if it's over a certain number, I will say, what is my compensation?
KAYLA: Money, please! Yeah, a sliding scale, if you will.
SARAH: Yes, exactly. At the beginning, did you think you were going to disagree with me?
KAYLA: Um, maybe a little more than I ended up disagreeing with you.
SARAH: Because there's nuance to it. But just saying, I don't like this. That's also part of the reason why, like, I have not posted anything online about this. Because it will get… like, I considered asking the girl whose tweet I saw before it had gotten super big, because I follow her. I don't think she follows me, but I do follow her. I considered reaching out to her and being like, hey…
KAYLA: What?
SARAH: First of all, are you demi? Which I realized… I figured out afterwards she is.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Second of all, I don't know about this definition. What do you think about that? But then I ultimately didn't. Because it's just, like, on the internet, you can't have fucking nuance in conversations.
KAYLA: No. And I also, like, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people are just so excited by the representation that it's just they're happy to overlook it. Or just, like, aren't thinking about it at all. Which I don't think is, like, a disparaging thing. Like, that's not wrong, I don't think. I think that makes sense to be, like, this is very exciting to me. It's not like, oh, you're a terrible demi because you didn't have an issue with it. Like, I get it.
SARAH: I think to me, part of the reason why I bumped on it when it seems so many people didn't is, one, I'm the logic police, I'm the grammar police. Like, my brain is just built like that.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Like, ACAB. But not… I don't know how else to describe it.
KAYLA: Yeah, I don't know.
SARAH: And then second, because I am not demi, because I myself was not, like, experiencing the euphoria of, like, oh, my God, that's me.
KAYLA: Sure
SARAH: I was able to look at it a little bit more.
KAYLA: Yeah. Well, I think as a writer, too, like.
SARAH: Objectionally. Subjectively.
KAYLA: Uh-huh.
SARAH: That's the one I was going for. This is Sarah from the future. That was not the word I was going for, I was trying to say objectively. What is happening?
KAYLA: I think as a writer too, you having the perspective of, like, there are some ways that this could have… we could have gotten around this. Like, there are other solutions.
SARAH: That's why, like, it was important to me in explaining this to like give alternative suggestions.
KAYLA: Right.
SARAH: Rather than just being like, this sucks…
KAYLA: I hate it, yeah.
SARAH: End of podcast. You know?
KAYLA: Yeah. I think ultimately maybe the reason I feel less strongly is like, if my options were for them not to have included it at all or for it to be the way it is exactly right now, I still would have it.
SARAH: Yeah, yeah.
KAYLA: Like, it is not the most accurate…
SARAH: I would, too, to be honest.
KAYLA: It's not the most accurate, maybe it will confuse some people, I would much rather have it either way.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: So, to me, I'm kind of like, yes, it could be better, but, like, it's still nice, I don't know.
[00:50:00]
SARAH: And it's not, like, deeply inaccurate, it's just not all encompassing.
KAYLA: It could be so much worse.
SARAH: It could be so much worse.
KAYLA: And I also… I think there's a part of me that hopes that, and I think it's accurate that a lot of people will see the movie and then read the book. That happens all the time. So, there's a part of me that hopes, too, that people see the movie, maybe not even, like, clock the demi thing, whatever, and then read the book, which I do think, while it doesn't have the word demisexual in it, they will have already heard it in the movie. Then they will see a more accurate representation in the book.
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: And at least then there's that. And then they get into Ali Hazelwood. There's a lot of other aspec characters in her book. To me, I guess I'm maybe slightly more hopeful that, like, people will find where they need to go.
SARAH: Yeah. Maybe. Because representation is great. I just want it to be accurate and thoughtful.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: I think this was thoughtful.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: It just could have been a little bit more accurate.
KAYLA: A little more accurate. I'm trying to think, too, like, think back to before I knew what demisexuality was or when I was first figuring it out. I mean, I don't know, like, that's so long ago now. I assume it would have been extremely impactful to me. Not that it isn't impactful now, but like being someone who grew up watching a bunch of rom-coms and then being a very late bloomer when it came to sex, then realizing, oh, I don't even know what's going on here. Like, seeing that, I think, would have been very helpful to know, like, oh, this is an option, because I didn't even know that was a word or a thing until I got to college and met Sarah. I didn't know we were doing that.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: So, I think even… I don't know, having the definition or the word said or not, having an alternative view of, like, a rom-com character like this who is not very romantically-motivated, not very sexually-motivated, like, is a STEM girly, whatever. Like, I've heard Lili Reinhart was talking about how she didn't identify with a lot of rom-com characters, because they always have this, like, huge group of friends and are super popular. And she's like, that's not me. Like, I have a very close-knit group. I wanted this to be, like, kind of different. Like, all those things together, I think it's nice to have a slightly different type of relationship shown.
SARAH: Yeah. But yeah, I think there's a conversation to be had maybe someday in the future when we have more representation, hopefully, about oversimplified representation versus more complex representation. And, you know, certain representation is like, is this so oversimplified that it would be better to not have it?
KAYLA: Right.
SARAH: As you said, in this case, I don't think that's true.
KAYLA: But there definitely could be cases where it is so oversimplified or so wrong that it is more harmful than helpful. Like, that is very real.
SARAH: Yeah. So, I just want us to be careful about that.
KAYLA: Yeah. Like I said, I think we should be open to having a dialogue about it and for people to be like, this actually didn't work for me. I don't think we need to be only joyful and only like, oh, my God, thank you so much. Like, thank you, Hollywood.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Like, we probably should do that a little bit so they do it more, but like…
SARAH: It's already happening.
KAYLA: It's already happening. Like, I think we can have kind, interesting conversations about it without it being, like, nasty. Like, it can just be an interesting, nice conversation.
SARAH: Yep, I concur. And it's always hard as a writer having someone give you notes and be like, mm, I don't like this. But that's part of being a writer and being a creator, it is taking notes, so.
KAYLA: Yeah. And no one is ever going to hear this. So actually, who cares?
SARAH: Right. We have three people who listen to this. And one of them is your sister and one of them is my sister.
KAYLA: Right. And what are they going to do about it?
SARAH: And then who's the third person? I don't know.
KAYLA: I don't know.
SARAH: Anything to add?
KAYLA: Nope.
SARAH: Great. Kayla, what is our poll for this week?
KAYLA: I want to know if people have watched it, what they think of it. Or even if you've just seen the clip or just based on what we've talked about. Like, what do you think of the definition? And do you think it is more... Like, do you... Okay. A more binary poll. Would you rather have it not in there at all? Or just, like, more... Okay, would you rather take it out of the movie completely or leave it in exactly as it is?
SARAH: Yeah. I think overwhelmingly leave it in is going to win.
KAYLA: Right. My vote is for leave the word demisexual in and then also put that scene back in the sex scene, because I liked it.
SARAH: Yeah, put it back in.
KAYLA: And also make the sex scene in the movie better. I understand it's not porn. It can't be porn the way the book is. But I think Heated Rivalry has spoiled me, because I watched it and I was like, ugh, it’s so vanilla, boring.
SARAH: RIP. Okay, great. Kayla, what's your beef and your juice for this week?
KAYLA: Another great question, thank you for asking. My… I guess we'll call it a gravy, is that I think I diagnosed myself with a mental disorder today.
SARAH: Today?!
KAYLA: Today.
SARAH: Brand new. Happy birthday…
KAYLA: Thank you.
SARAH: To the mental disorder.
KAYLA: Thank you.
SARAH: What is it?
KAYLA: Well, I'll tell you. I don't know that I want it in the pod.
SARAH: Back to the pod.
KAYLA: So that's a gravy because I'm like, uh-oh, but I'm also like, oh, feeling seen in the club.
SARAH: Yeah. Now maybe you can deal with it better.
KAYLA: Perhaps.
SARAH: Now that it has a name and a face and a lot of teeth.
KAYLA: Anyway, my juice is the new season of Traitors. I'm liking it so far, there's this guy I follow on TikTok; it's the civilian season of Traitors, so it's like normals. There are some people who have like an okay, like TikTok or Instagram following. I wouldn't say they're like famous right now. But there's one guy who I followed on TikTok for a while, he's an immigration lawyer and he's fucking hilarious. He just like makes these videos of him like stomping down the street, bitching about whatever, work and non-work related; he's just fucking hilarious.
SARAH: Great.
KAYLA: And he's on this season. And I was really worried that he was going to get voted out earlier, like killed earlier, that he wouldn't get a lot of screen time, but he's gotten very good screen time and he's so funny. And I was like, Michael, yes!
SARAH: Michael slaayyyy!
KAYLA: I’m done
SARAH: My beef is that I'm sick and I'm just like tired. Like my throat kind of hurts and I cough sometimes, but like my biggest symptom is that I'm tired. What the fuck is that all about?
KAYLA: Not good. Maybe you have pneumonia.
SARAH: My boss was like, maybe you have mono.
KAYLA: I was just… I did just think that and I was like, from who?
SARAH: Where the hell would I have gotten mono from?
KAYLA: I don't know.
SARAH: Anyway. So, that's annoying. Oh, Jesus Christ, I'm sorry. This is Sarah from the future. I shouldn't be abusing my Sarah from the future privileges to just put in more beef. But I just want you guys to know that it's just like a dumb cold that won't go away, which is really annoying. And I was like, I need to get my flu and my COVID shots. I'm already going to have to do nothing this weekend. Let me just do it Friday night and just stack them, you know? And I feel horrible. I don't know how much of that is me being sick and how much of that is the COVID shot. But I feel like garbage. Have they considered coming out with a COVID shot that doesn't make you feel like shit? Just an idea. Anyway, get your flu and COVID shots; I'm sure that's really encouraging for you all. My other beef is that the North America leg of the Taemin tour, which I have a ticket to, got postponed because not all of their staff could get visas.
KAYLA: Ooh!
SARAH: Because they've been waiting and waiting and like they're just not getting... And so, they were like, we have to just postpone the whole thing.
KAYLA: Ugh!
SARAH: And then apparently that happened recently with the fan tour, the Dan & Phil tour earlier this month.
KAYLA: Oh, damn
SARAH: They had a similar issue where they had to postpone it because they couldn't get the visas that they needed.
KAYLA: That is wild.
SARAH: Because the US government sucks.
KAYLA: Only related in that it's a concert thing. My other juice is that Ed Sheeran's concert at Gillette Stadium ended up getting canceled anyway because of the rain that we had.
SARAH: Yep. And for those who don't know…
KAYLA: Just look it up
SARAH: A lot of the reason that this blew up was because of...
KAYLA: Gillette Stadium.
SARAH: Gillette Stadium, man.
KAYLA: Yeah. And then they didn't even do it anyway. And I said, ha, ha, ha.
SARAH: He he he
KAYLA: Also, SNL UK's bit about him on their weekend update was funny.
SARAH: I only saw the bit that Amelia did in her opening monologue.
KAYLA: There's one during weekend update that's very silly.
SARAH: Okay. Well, in the opening monologue, she was like, I've had someone... Because she's the Chicken Shop Date host.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And she was like, I've had a lot of people on my show, like showing whoever, including that ginger guy with a hand up his ass.
KAYLA: Oh, yeah. And it showed Elmo.
SARAH: It showed Elmo. And then she goes, no, not that one. And then it showed Ed Sheeran.
KAYLA: Good. Good.
SARAH: My juice is...
KAYLA: Me.
SARAH: I didn't prepare... Kayla? I guess.
[01:00:00]
KAYLA: Hey!
SARAH: Okay. Hello, everyone. This audio sucks. I'm still on Zoom with Kayla, but you can't hear her. I would just like to say that I had really good juice that I forgot, which is that I'm being put on a new type of medication for all of my hives. And hopefully it will fix me. That's all, goodbye. The bachelorette party I'm going to next month, this month, as you're listening. We are, in fact, going to a gold retriever farm.
KAYLA: Noooo! Don't have more fun than at mine.
SARAH: I'm not saying it's more fun. Will I see whales in Joshua Tree? No.
KAYLA: Yeah, but you're going to see a bunch of dogs.
SARAH: I can see dogs anywhere.
KAYLA: I saw a good dog at work today. I fed it a treat.
SARAH: I saw two dogs at a restaurant the other day; they were goldens.
KAYLA: That's crazy. The dog I saw at work sometimes rides my bus and it is very polite.
SARAH: Oh. My coworker brought her dog in to the office for the first time last week, and he's a very polite boy.
KAYLA: That's very good.
SARAH: He's like a… he's a whippet-pit bull mix.
KAYLA: Huh.
SARAH: But whenever anyone asks, he's just a whippet mix.
KAYLA: Oh, whipbull.
SARAH: Whipbull.
KAYLA: A pit whip.
SARAH: Whip that pit.
KAYLA: Pit it. Whip a pit.
SARAH: The way my brain was like, that's probably a kink. Okay, got to go. You can tell us about your beef, your juice, other things, on our social media @soundsfakepod. We also have a Patreon, patreon.com/soundsfakepod, if you wish to support us there. Our $5 patrons who we are promoting this month are Bronwyn Herron, Clark Fadoir, Jiro the Wolf, Arctic Enby, and Cinnamon Toast Punch. I have bought cereal several times the last times I've been grocery-shopping.
KAYLA: Wow
SARAH: And I have not bought Cinnamon Toast Crunch.
KAYLA: That's very brave of you.
SARAH: Because…
KAYLA: You have a problem.
SARAH: I have bought real cereal, and I ate a lot of Cheerios today.
KAYLA: Wow.
SARAH: I will admit. Because I didn't really eat the real food I should have.
KAYLA: That's sick food. That's sick food.
SARAH: Yeah. Our $10 patrons who are promoting something week are Elle Bitter who would like to promote normalizing the use of tone indicators/srs. Eric, who would like to promote...
KAYLA: Wait, we have a new one.
SARAH: Elle does?
KAYLA: No, we have a new patron.
SARAH: Oh, I fully didn't check.
KAYLA: And they sent us an email even, I think.
SARAH: Oh my God! Oh my God!
KAYLA: Look who didn't do their homework.
SARAH: I didn't, I'm ill.
KAYLA: That's fair.
SARAH: Yesterday, I like didn't do something for my boss because he like wasn't clear. And I was like, no, I didn't do that thing because you didn't answer my question. And then I realized he did answer my question.
KAYLA: Ooh, that's a tough one.
SARAH: And I was like, oopsies. Hold on. A, B, C, E, F, G…
KAYLA: G, H, I, J, K, L, M…
SARAH: N, O, P
KAYLA: N, O, P, Q…
SARAH: Okay. Our new $5 patron is Fiddle-Isk...
KAYLA: R, S, T, U, Z…
SARAH: Stop it. Our new $5 patron is Fiddle-Isk...
KAYLA: Wait, I messed up. I said Z when I meant V. I don't want people to think I'm stupid. Continue.
SARAH: Oh my God! Our new $5 patron is Fiddle-Isk Barnd. Thank you, Fiddle-Isk Barnd.
KAYLA: Thank you. And you sent a nice email, assuming that was from you, because that had a different... Like, probably your Christian name.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: I don't assume Fiddle is your Christian name.
SARAH: Yeah. We did get a nice email. If that is from you, thank you. If that is from someone else, thank you.
KAYLA: Thank you. It was a very nice email.
SARAH: The way my brain was like, you can tell us about your beef... No, we've already done that.
KAYLA: Sorry, I messed you up.
SARAH: Whoo! Okay. Yeah, you did. Our $10 patrons who are promoting something this week are Elle Bitter who would like to promote normalizing the use of tone indicators /srs. Eric, who would like to promote Queer ASL. My aunt Jeannie, who would like to promote Christopher's Haven. Johanna, who would like to promote being kind to one another. And Kayla's dad, who would like to promote JandiCreations.com. Our other 10 other patrons are Maff, Martin Chiesl, Purple Hayes, Quartertone, Barefoot Backpacker, SongOStorm, Sidney Price, Val, Alastor, Ani, Arcnes, Benjamin Ybarra, Clare Olsen, Danielle Hutchinson, and Derick & Carissa. Our $15 patrons are Ace, who would like to promote the writer, Crystal Scherer. Nathaniel White, who would like to promote NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com. Kayla's aunt Nina, who would like to promote katemaggartart.com. And Schnell, who would like to promote accepting that everyone is different and that's awesome. Our $20 patrons are Changeling & Alex, who would like to promote their company Control Alt Access. And Dr. Jacki, Dragonfly, my mom and River, who would like to promote the fact that if someone blocks you on PayPal, you can still send them invoices.
KAYLA: And if they block you on Venmo, then Kayla can request them on Venmo instead.
SARAH: Did you do it?
KAYLA: I did. I wrote a note that I thought was funny. I don’t remember it.
SARAH: I asked my sister too, but she goes, I can't get into my Venmo, it has been broken. And I was like, can you PayPal-request? She goes, my PayPal got hacked. And I was like, girl, you got problems.
KAYLA: How do I see my requests?
SARAH: It may be gone.
KAYLA: Ugh, I said something really funny of like, just… what's her name again?
SARAH: Rita.
KAYLA: I said, Rita, just give back the money. Just give it back.
SARAH: You know what I did today? I messaged on Facebook somebody who is connected to her.
KAYLA: Oops! What's her Venmo again? I want to request her again.
SARAH: Rita-Grisham. If anyone else wants to Venmo-request her.
KAYLA: She has not blocked me yet. How much money?
SARAH: I won't say, no. $440.
KAYLA: Request. I keep getting afraid I'm going to click pay.
SARAH: Me too. No, I do have that fear every time.
KAYLA: What should I say?
SARAH: I don't know.
KAYLA: Stop scamming people. Give back the money. Should I throw in an ‘or else.’ Probably not.
SARAH: No, probably not. I got really paranoid when I was reaching out to the person on Facebook who is her… who refers to her as mom, but does not seem to be her biological child.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: I was like, what if this is a fake person? And they've just done a really good job and they put pictures of children on this page. So, I went really far back on the account.
KAYLA: Wow!
SARAH: And I was like, if this is a fake person…
KAYLA: Good job
SARAH: They've been doing this charade for 13 years!
KAYLA: Can you imagine?
SARAH: So. I hope she reads my message. Thanks for listening, tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.
KAYLA: And until then, take good care of your cows.
SARAH: Bye.
[END OF TRANSCRIPT]