Ep 34: Asexual People are Part of the LGBTQIA+ Community

SARAH: Hey what’s up hello. Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl (I’m Sarah. That’s me.)

KAYLA: And a demi straight girl (that’s me, Kayla.)

SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else that we just don’t understand.

KAYLA: On today’s episode: Ace people being in the LGBT+ community.

BOTH: — Sounds fake, but okay.

*Intro music*

SARAH: Welcome back to the pod.

KAYLA: We're spicy.

SARAH: We're very spicy today. Also, before we get into the spice, just letting you know that this is our first remotely recorded podcast. So, apologies if there are any technical difficulties.

KAYLA: Yeah, we really don't know what we're doing. We've already had ten difficulties. I don't know what's happening. We can't see each other because FaceTime wasn't working. So, I don't even know when Sarah's about to talk, I have nothing, we have nothing.

SARAH: It's good. But we'll figure it out. So, apologies, if we have any issues in this episode, we will try and work them out as we go. But this week, ooh we're spicy.

KAYLA: It's true.

SARAH: Basically, what happened was [that] I today, on Twitter, saw a post that was pretty aphobic, and I didn't like it, but I also made the mistake of going and looking at the replies.

KAYLA: Which were not nice. I also looked at them and I was like, it made me feel sick. It was, I hated it.

SARAH: I was pretty mad. And so basically, we saw some conversations about this post. We participated in some conversations about this post. And we kind of just wanted to talk about it, because it made both of us feel not good. So, we're basically going to talk in this episode about why ace people belong in the LGBTQIA+ community.

KAYLA: I have some beef with why people are deciding that they aren’t, and not just that people are saying they aren’t, but just the logic there, I have some fundamental issues with.

SARAH: I guess for some context, I can explain what the post was. So, it's like a chart and it says – 

KAYLA: A flow chart?

SARAH: Right. And it says, are you cis? And then it says, if the answer is no, it goes to ‘Congrats, you're LGBT’. If the answer is yes, it goes to the question, do you experience same-gender attraction? And if you say yes, it goes to the ‘Congrats, you're LGBT’, if you say no, it says you're not LGBT’. That's pretty aphobic. Because it excludes people on the ace spectrum who don't necessarily experience same-sex attraction and are cisgendered, but are still under the ace umbrella. And so, we have some thoughts.

KAYLA: So basically, I was the one discoursing with people, because Sarah was like, I don't know that I want to like, do anything. And I was like, I’ll just say something politely, and just have a small conversation. I basically reached out to someone and I was like, hey, saw you retweeted this, don't know if you realized or look at the comments, but [it’s] pretty aphobic. It didn't include ace people.

And they were like, yeah. I just don't think that ace people should be in the LGBT community because they don't go through the same oppression and whatever. And I was like, well, I'm really sorry you think that, however from my experience on the ace spectrum and from the experience of people, there can be a lot of oppression and hurt and everything. And they were like, well, I'm not saying that there's not difficulties and stuff, I just don't think it's the same. And I don't think that just because there are difficulties, they should be in the community. And I was like, well again, I'm sorry you feel that way. And then I just like, it was over. But I was like, really?

SARAH: I don't know if it's my biggest issue with that, but one of the major issues – 

KAYLA: Your beef.

SARAH: Throwing it back, some beef. [One of the major issues] is that most of the people – I don't see too much aphobia in my day-to-day life because I mean, I try and stay away from that. The people that I follow on social media are people who I trust to not be aphobic. But it does come up sometimes. And this was one of those times. And the thing that's most frustrating to me is that I find that it's mostly other LGBTQ+ people who are saying this.

KAYLA: Yeah. I mean, obviously it'd be kind of, I don't know. I feel like it'd be kind of weird if it was straight people, because it's like, what are you – I don't know.

SARAH: A lot of straight people also don't know that we exist, but you know.

KAYLA: Yeah, that's great.

SARAH: But it's these people who like, I think that they should understand, they know what it feels like to be marginalized. And yet they're saying these things that I find offensive, and that make me feel like shit. And it's just really disappointing to me.

KAYLA: Well, yeah. Out of everyone, you would think, here's people that understand the kind of thing I'm going through, even if it's not the same. Here's people that you would think you could trust to not say things that they would be upset with. And then it’s, nope. They also are the ones throwing back that much hurt.

SARAH: Exactly. And I think that's why for me, it's mostly –  I mean, I'm angry at the post and I'm angry at the things that were said, but primarily I'm just really disappointed, which is frustrating. But I guess to move forward to kind of explain why ace people do belong in the LGBTQIA+ community, because they do, they do.

KAYLA: It's just how it is.

SARAH: I think on a very basic level, the whole point of the LGBTQIA+ community is that it's a community bringing together people who are not straight, and as an aro-ace person, I am not romantically or sexually attracted to men. As a cisgendered woman, I am not romantically or sexually attracted to men, therefore, I am not straight. Therefore, I am a part of the community full stop. Like, that's it.

KAYLA: Right. And so I've taken women's studies classes, and we had a couple of weeks on just the queer community in general, and way back when, the definition of queer was anyone that was outside of societal norms sexually. So even people that watch porn or had kinks or whatever, even they were considered queer. And there was varying levels of queer. If you were gay, you were probably more on the inner circle of whatever, but that's how it originally was defined. And queer theory, if you look at queer theory, that's kind of the basis of it, from an academic standpoint. And yet you get to the actual community and it’s like hmm. And my biggest thing is, who is the one that gets to decide who’s in the community or not?

SARAH: Right.

KAYLA: Because looking through those comments, it is often white gay men are the ones that get to stand at the threshold of the community and say, no, you're just not queer enough for my community, sorry. But, why are they the ones that get to decide whether or not people get to participate in a certain community?

SARAH: Exactly. And I think people think that because they're a part of the community, they get to decide. And I don't mean to say that they shouldn't get a voice. However, I don't think that just because you're in the community, you get to make all the decisions, because otherwise there would be a thousand different decisions within the community about who's what and who belongs. And there is no one person who gets to make all these decisions. And even if there was, it's not some rando on Twitter. I don't mean to be rude, but that's just the case. 

And I think when you're talking about these communities, I think you really need to listen to the people in the community that you're talking about, and listen to their experience and not just say, I don't think they experience this, so I get to decide they're not a part of this community. You should listen to them and listen to what their actual experience is. Because if you do, you will find that their experience is a lot like yours.

And that's something that also really frustrated me with some of the conversations that I saw and that Kayla was a part of, was people saying like, I recognize that ace people have issues. I just don't think that makes them, I guess, to paraphrase queer enough to be LGBTQIA+.

(10:00)

KAYLA: Right. And to me, it's also comments that were saying ace people don't face any oppression or any whatever. And it's like, first of all, how would you know what any ace people go through? How do you know exactly what kind of things they're facing, if you haven't talked to them and you're not willing to engage with them?

And also I don't think – Why does the community, “getting into the community”, why does that have to be [about] what level of hate everyone is facing? Who made being in the LGBT community all about being like, we're all experiencing a lot of hate and oppression together and so that's the basis of this community? I recognize that that is something that is very important to the community, and that's something super bonding. But I don't get who decided that was the mission statement of LGBT+ people, rather than supporting each other and celebrating their identity.

SARAH: Exactly. Because that was kind of the point when, when the community was first formed, it was about bonding together to create a better world for queer people. And somehow that translated to, in 2018, people – Obviously not everyone does this, but there are people in the community who basically argue about who is more oppressed and who is less oppressed. And because you're not as oppressed as I am, that means you don't belong in this community.

It's not a contest, I don't think we should be comparing because listen, as an aro-ace person, as a cisgendered white aro-ace person, I recognize that I have privilege and I have straight-passing privilege. I can pass as straight if I want or need to. And I recognize that I have privilege there. But there are issues that the aspec or the ace umbrella community faces, and they may not be the same as yours and you know what? Some of them may not be as difficult as yours, but that doesn't make them any less valid.

KAYLA: Also, if we're comparing who is the most queer by how oppressed they are, are we going to say that Black trans people are more oppressed than white trans people so they should be more queer? If we're playing that game, how far – Because does that mean disabled queer people are more queer? Because they don't get a lot of rep or attention. Whoever's making these rules, not really thinking it through.

SARAH: Right. And I don't want it to be an argument about like, here's the oppression we face and here are the struggles we face, but if you're going to make that argument, that ace people don't face these struggles, then okay, let's talk about them. So, I feel like a lot of people are like, well, ace people, they're not going to be faced with like conversion therapy because they can be straight-passing. And it’s like, corrective rape exists, buddy. It's gross and it's not fun, but for a lot of ace people is a part of that experience.

And different people, regardless of where you fall in the LGBTQIA+ spectrum, different people are going to face different struggles depending on the environment they're in. And luckily, I'm in a very good environment, so I don't face the same kind of stuff as other people might. But that's true also of some gay people are going to have it much harder than other gay people, and gay and trans people may face different struggles, but that doesn't make one of them more deserving of a place in the community than another.

KAYLA: That's an interesting point that you brought up to me when we were texting about this before we were recording, I was telling what this person said to me and they said something about I don't think ace people face the same struggles that gay or trans people do. And you'd brought up a good point of gay and trans people don't experience the same thing as each other. The gay and the trans experience are very different from each other, even from my outside perspective. And yet somehow they are both allowed to be in the same community, when we know that they're so different.

SARAH: Right. And also, if you're going to consider the whole spectrum, let's talk about intersex people. Intersex people also have a very different experience than gay people. Gay people, and bi people, and pan people have a different experience. There is no single one queer experience. And so again, I just really don't think we should be pitting oppression against each other. Like that just seems to me a really, I guess, almost harmful way to think of it, if instead of being an uplifting community, it's a place where it's a contest of who's more oppressed.

KAYLA: I also think like if you're going to make it a contest of who is being most oppressed, like you said, not everyone is facing the same thing. If you're a gay person that's never faced conversion therapy, maybe you've had total acceptance in your life, if we're going by the oppression rule, maybe they're not that queer.

There's two different conversations going on at the same time, because the post, the flow chart was like, if you are sexually attracted to the opposite gender, you're LGBT. But then in the comments, people were saying, well, the reason that ace people aren't in it is because you don't face oppression. So, should that flow chart say, if you face oppression based on your sexuality, then you're LGBT? There's two different standards being set out, but no one's talking about them at the same time. No one's actually addressing it.

SARAH: Yeah. And I think it also has to do with representation. I think the struggles and the issues, and the oppression of the gay community and the trans community, they make the press. They're out there, you see them. Just because you don't see it as much with the ace community, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means that you don't see it.

KAYLA: Right. And so many people, so many straight people don't know that asexuality exists. And so, you have to wonder, like, if people did know, maybe there would be more oppression that was on a more equal level or something, that they seem to think doesn't exist. So, you have to think, maybe it is an equivalent amount of oppression to the degree that people know about it.

SARAH: And I also think one of the things that was said by one of these people was, I think that ace people should have a space to feel safe and validated. And it's like, well, that's what the LGBTQIA+ community is supposed to be, so why can't we be part of it?

KAYLA: Right. I don't understand why they think ace people need a separate community by themselves, sequestered off. What is the problem with everyone being together? Would that not be more constructive for everyone?

SARAH: And I mean, the people we saw talking tended to be like, yeah, ace people exist, I just don't want them here. [That] was the vibe I was getting. But there are also people out there who are just like, asexuality is not real. And that's, I don't even know which is harder to deal with.

KAYLA: For me, it's like, it seems almost harder to deal with the people that are like, that does exist, but I'm not accepting you. Because often those people are in the LGBT community, and so, you're facing the exact same thing as me. And yet you're being totally hypocritical about it, because at least people that don't think it exists are just like – 

SARAH: They’re consistent.

KAYLA: I don't know if they're just being ignorant, but people that know it exists and are just still being bullheaded about it, are just being totally hypocritical.

SARAH: I almost feel like you're choosing to be ignorant of it because you see that there's this group of people who – I also think because the ace community, it feels like a newer community. Obviously, ace people have existed forever, but the community itself is still in its baby stages compared to the gay or trans communities. And because the community is younger, we're facing the sort of issues that other LGBTQIA+ communities, notably the gay community, the trans community to some extent, but I think the gay community has taken the most strides of any group. We're experiencing stuff that they experienced at the beginning, in their baby stages of their community.

And so, the people who are a part of that community are sort of treating the ace community in the same way that they were treated in the very beginning stages. But because they're so much further into their evolution, they don't recognize – I don't necessarily want to say bigotry, but they don't recognize that they're treating ace people in the way that gay people were treated, just because they haven't experienced that themselves.

KAYLA: It's like, they're forgetting the history of their own community. I'm not saying it's necessary for everyone in the community to like, go through a history lesson to be part of it. But I would hope it's important to some people to realize what people have done in the past to get you where you are right now. The struggles they got through to get you into a place that's more privileged than they were. But I mean, it's obvious that people are kind of, I don't want to say taking advantage of the position they're in, but I don't know. They could be more thankful, I don't know. That's bitchy to say, because they were obviously not there so there's not a ton to be thankful for – 

(20:00)

SARAH: Exactly. And I feel like a good comparison, as a woman, it's easy for me to forget what the women before me had to go through, so that I could live the life in the way I'm living it.

KAYLA: It's sometimes hard to remember that because we're still struggling. There's still a wage gap, there’s still such a glass ceiling. So sometimes it's easy to forget how well off we actually are. But sometimes, you do need to remember that to ground yourself, and dig yourself out of a pit.

SARAH: And I think going back to what we were saying earlier about some people just not believing asexuality is real, and other people believing it's real, but not accepting it. I really do think that as an ace person, it like hurts more to be told, I recognize your sexuality, but I don't accept you.

KAYLA: Well, yeah. It's almost them being like well, I see that. I just like, don't give a shit.

SARAH: Because it's like, if you don't think asexuality is real, that's a very different issue. Because you probably are more than likely homophobic, transphobic and other ways and it's an issue of seeing humans as humans and that sort of deal, it's a much more basic issue. But when you have people in the community who accept trans people, they accept gay, lesbian, bi, pan, all these other people in the community. And then they see you and say, I see you have issues, I see this as your sexuality, I think you deserve a safe place, but you can't have it here. You're not allowed here, because I don't want you here. That's so much worse as an ace person. It's like, you're validated and then slapped in the face.

KAYLA: Well, it's also like, because you were talking about the ace community being in its infancy and you know what would really help the ace community grow even faster, [is] if it was more accepted in the LGBT community, because then people that have been through it before and have a rich history could be like, here's how we did it. Here's some tips, come in here and we'll help you. But no.

SARAH: Yeah. It also just relates to the fact, going back to the idea that we've talked about in previous episodes of the ace community feeling a little bit separate from the LGBTQIA+ community, because some people accept us, but others don't. And so, it feels like we're in this back corner, and what some of the people who were talking – Based off of what I was able to see of them, and what I know of these people, some of them are openly bi. And for me, it's just like, the bi and the ace communities, bi pan and ace, we're the invisible sexualities and it's like, we should be lifting each other up. We should be helping each other out. We shouldn't be saying, you don't belong here because that's what I decided.

KAYLA: Right. And I do often see a lot of camaraderie between the bi and the ace communities. So it is like – I don't know. I feel it especially made me very mad today, because like you said, you don't experience a lot of this, in your daily life. And I don't either, this is not something I see often.

SARAH: We're lucky in that way.

KAYLA: It's often something I hear about, but don't see. And so actually being confronted with it was today for me like, this is real and there are a good amount of people who are saying this kind of stuff, people that I know. You just don't think that people you know – You don't think that you're going to see that. And then all of a sudden, it's just like, hey.

SARAH: And I think that's the thing that's the most frustrating to me, is that these are people who have experienced what we're experiencing, and they still just don't care. They don't want us. And that's something that I just can't wrap my head around, is how you can accept that a group of people is having this issue, that a group of people has this identity, that they're facing these struggles, and then at the same time basically kick them off your doorstep. I just don't get it.

KAYLA: I'm just trying to wrap my head around why this comparison about oppression needs to be there. Is there some kind of sick jealousy that they think there's less oppression? And so, they are frustrated – Are they frustrated that theirs are the stories of oppression that get picked up in the news?

SARAH: I don't know.

KAYLA: And obviously I'm not saying that it's true or anything. I'm just speculating. Because I really can't wrap my head around what it is that makes people not want to just be opening and welcome? What are you mad at? What are you afraid of?

SARAH: I think it might just be a cultural thing now too, because you hear people all the time, people online will be like, I'm depressed. And then someone else is like, well my grandma died, and my best friend killed themselves, and I'm more depressed than you. And I think it's just this mindset for some reason on the internet, everything is a contest.

KAYLA: Yeah, I think that's very fair.

SARAH: Everything is a goddamn contest. Why can't we just support each other? Why can't we just build each other up?

KAYLA: You know a good switching-topics kind of – I was texting my boyfriend about this, because I was getting really heated. And so, I sent him a screenshot of a tweet and I was kind of telling him what people said, because he doesn't really know the discourse or anything. So, I was telling him what people said, and he made a really good point, he said I think it's more complicated all the way around than just four boxes that are in that flow chart.

SARAH: Oh, for sure.

KAYLA: And that makes it even more hypocritical to me that there is this flow chart that is four singular boxes and a couple arrows, when the entire LGBT+ community is all about breaking out of boxes, and making people recognize that it's a spectrum. And now you're going back and putting things in boxes, when this whole time we've been talking about spectrums and you're all about spectrums, but this one thing isn't it? This one thing is very binary. You're either in the community or not. You’re queer or you're not. Why is this all of a sudden, not a spectrum to you, when everything else is? It's so hypocritical to me.

SARAH: Exactly. If you want to simplify it, here's the way to simplify it. Question: are you straight? Yes. You're straight. No. You’re a part of – Sorry, take that back. Are you cisgendered and straight? Yes. Straight. No. You're a part of the LGBTQIA+ community, and that's it. And I also think that that's an issue. If you accept that ace people exist and you accepted that they have these issues, but you're not going to put them on that flow chart, does that mean you think they're straight? Because you can't think they're straight, if you accept their sexuality.

KAYLA: Yeah. There's some confusion there.

SARAH: So, it’s like, where do you put ace people? Why are they just not on this chart?

KAYLA: Right. Is there a separate – You're either LGBT+, ace or straight? Is there now three for some reason? Why?

SARAH: So, it's just like either a) you think ace people are somehow straight or b) you just erased them completely off of that list.

KAYLA: You know what, maybe people do think that ace people are straight. Because I feel a common misconception is, even when people are ace and you understand that someone's ace, you assume that they are still straight. You assume that if you weren't ace, then you would be straight. I think that's a common assumption that people make, and so maybe they're thinking well, because you're ace that – I don't know.

SARAH: And it also seems like, okay, so I guess they're accepting people who fall under the ace umbrella, but do experience same-sex attraction. So, then it's like, I guess you're splitting the ace community up then, you're basically saying – 

KAYLA: Right, so what do they think of sex positive asexual people? Where do you put them? Or people that are aro? What are you, what are you doing?

SARAH: I just don't understand the logic.

KAYLA: I don’t think there is any.

SARAH: That's what I was going to say. I think the logic is that there is none. I think people who have these thoughts and beliefs are people who don't understand the asexual community, and they don't understand the implications of the claims they're making.

KAYLA: I think they're just having this gut reaction to something, and they're automatically thinking for some reason this is my gut reaction, I'm uncomfortable, I'm afraid, I don't understand. And so, they're having this gut reaction, and they're not thinking about anything that could come from their statements or their thoughts.

SARAH: And I think maybe these people who are saying they accept the ace community, even though they're saying they accept it, maybe they don't really understand it.

KAYLA: Maybe they're just saying, I accept it to look as good as possible and be as PC as possible. But I mean, they could just also have a fundamental misunderstanding of what asexuality actually is at all.

(30:00)

SARAH: Because, I mean, asexuality is – lol, punny. It is ‘a’ sexuality, ‘a’ meaning one sexuality. It's not a choice, I'm not not having sex just because I don't feel like it today. It is an actual sexuality and I wonder if these people are just –

But as people who are queer, I just don't understand why they would choose to reject it.

KAYLA: Right. Because then you're thinking like, maybe they think the ace people are straight and you're just choosing not to have sex, or you have a low sex drive, but you still are straight. There must, I'm trying to rationalize it. There must be some sort of misunderstanding.

SARAH: There has to be.

KAYLA: Or maybe people are just that fucking awful.

SARAH: It's one of the two.

KAYLA: I just, ugh.

SARAH: I also think that people in the queer community, they're more familiar with gayness and people who are trans, and even people who are bi or pan and they're just not as familiar with the ace community. And so, as people often do, when they don't understand something – I don't necessarily want to say [they’re] afraid of it, but they push it away.

KAYLA: Yeah. And I mean, that is human experience, I guess.

SARAH: But as someone who's a part of the LGBTQIA+ community, I would expect better from you, because you have been that person pushed away.

KAYLA: Well, I almost wonder too, because I feel like the LGBT+ community is so sex positive right now, that's just like kind of where it’s headed. Like if you go to a pride, it's very sexual. And so, I'm almost wondering if people are coming into the community and that's what they see, and that's what they learn from the time they're in the community, if they just don't understand that anything else could be queer or could exist.

SARAH: Yeah. I just, at the end of the day I feel two things. Well, three things, I feel angry, but more so I feel like I just don't understand these people, and I feel disappointed in these people. It's like, they have tried to rationalize their thinking, but to me, there are just so many holes in their thinking. And so like, I'm trying to understand it, but I'm finding all of these holes in their logic, and I don't understand why they think their logic stands up.

KAYLA: Well, yeah. I guess I have a lot of questions that I don't think that these people could really answer in a very logical way. I have a lot of questions about like, why exactly do you think that, and why do you think that it has to be about oppression to make you in this community? I have a lot of questions I just don't think that people are thinking through.

SARAH: And I also think that when you see these discourses, first of all, it's very hard to have these discourses because they get nasty, fast. Which is why I wasn't necessarily comfortable talking about this on the internet, because I knew it wasn't going to be good for me. I was already pretty upset, and so it's like, this is not good, this is not healthy for me to be doing this.

But also, it's just the conversation. I feel it's hard to turn away from this idea of who is more oppressed. And I feel if you're able to turn it away from that, and really talk about the reasons why these people think that ace people don't belong in the community, aside from oppression, I've never really seen an argument that talks about that.

KAYLA: Yeah, because I will say that the conversation I had with the person was very civil, but I did focus on the oppression piece, and I didn't even think to ask the person like, hey, why is that the qualifier you're using? And honestly, if I did, I don't know that they wouldn't feel attacked and be like, well, now you're erasing my oppression, if you're saying that that's not part of my experience. If you do use that argument with someone and do say like, I understand that maybe there's a different kind of oppression here, however, why are we using that as a qualifier? I can see someone using that and being like, well, why are you taking away that oppression from me? Why are you saying that it doesn't matter when it's something that's a big deal to me?

SARAH: I just glanced at the comments again, because I wanted to look at something. There were a couple of people being like, hey, ace people? in the comments and the person who originally posted it, I don't think they were the – So, it was a screenshot of a post from Tumblr. And I don't think the person who tweeted it was the OP from Tumblr. I think this was a different person who just saw it on Tumblr, and shared it on Twitter. However, someone literally was like, what about ace people? And the original poster from Twitter said, that's the whole point of this post.

And for me it's like, so what you did in your mind was you said, I would like to make a post that excludes a group of people from the LGBTQ+ community, because I don't think they belong here. So, I am going to make a post that specifically targets them, and tells them that they do not belong. Did they mention ace people in the post? No. Asexual was not, the word was not in there. However, based off of the replies and what the OP said in the replies, this was clearly intentionally meant to exclude ace people. That was the point of the post. The post was not to say, hey, this is a community and you're welcome in it, the point of the post was to exclude ace people.

KAYLA: And that's gross. That's so hypocritical because it's one thing if you did that to a straight person, because straight people are privileged. It's one thing to exclude straight people from the community because first of all, they don't belong. And second of all, excluding them is not discriminatory, because they have a place of their own. But discriminating against and excluding a group of people who is not privileged, that's just outright hypocrisy.

SARAH: You know, the A in LGBTQIA+ is for asexual, aromantic and agender. The A is literally in there.

KAYLA: Yeah, but people say it's really ally.

SARAH: And it's not for ally.

KAYLA: I know, but that’s their argument.

SARAH: If the point of the post was to explain that then okay, I would say, yeah, I think this is something that may be worth talking about. I don't know if just posting a flow chart and being like, ha ha, here it is the way to do it. But I think it's important for people to know that allies are not members of the community, they're allies to the community.

KAYLA: Well also, so if allies are in the LGBTA name, how much oppression have allies faced? Have they faced enough to be in the community now?

SARAH: Yeah. And I don't think that's what OP was saying, but I do think – 

KAYLA: But that is in the argument. Because if they're going to use that argument, that's what I'm saying is I have a lot of questions I don't think people would argue against, because by their logic, if the A is going to be in there for ally, then those allies should face the oppression. And I'm saying people are not using this logic all-encompassing, they are not thinking about all the implications of this logic, and it does not make sense when you break it down.

SARAH: Right. And I think it's possible that they're just saying, I don't think the A belongs there at all, but either way, I think that there's a serious issue with that argument. And I think people who believe this – Clearly today, I didn't engage with this because I was like, I can't do this. But I do think to some extent it is important to engage with these people, and try and have a civil conversation where if you're going to talk about oppression, talk about it in the sense that, okay, it's not a contest. You face oppression. I face oppression. They may not be equal. Who cares? It's not a contest. This community is about bringing people together, and it's about making things better for all of us.

And because it's not about oppression, let's steer the conversation away and talk about the real reason why you don't think ace people belong. And I think that's an important conversation to have, but it's also a very difficult conversation to have. And if you like me in this situation, don't feel comfortable or don't feel like you can have that conversation, I don't think that's necessarily something to be ashamed of. But if you do feel like you can have that conversation, I think it's important that you do.

(40:00)

KAYLA: Yeah. Because I mean, there's no way that there's going to be change brought about by this, if conversations aren't had, because the only way to change someone's opinion is to talk to them. So, the only way we can get these people that think this way to really understand what we're saying, is to say it to them. But that is a difficult thing because I think that's something that's going on politically right now, too. That's something I heard a lot after the elections is people being like, it might not be a great idea to exclude all Trump supporters from your life. Maybe try to talk to them first. But that is something very hard to do in all of these circumstances, because if someone is kind of openly bashing you to your face, that doesn't really make you want to have a nice conversation.

SARAH: Right. And especially if you, like me, identify with the identity or the community that's being bashed, that's being excluded, that's being thrown out onto the street by the people who you thought could help you, that hurts and that's difficult, and it can be hard to have a civil conversation.

KAYLA: Well, yeah. And I think that's, kind of why I felt more comfortable taking it on is because I don't think I was as attacked as Sarah might've been in that post, because I am someone that is like, I am straight. So, it's still, it's not something that like pertains me, as much as it pertains to Sarah. And so, it was easier for me to have a more laid-back conversation and not get too emotionally invested on my own behalf. I'm more emotionally invested on Sarah's behalf, and the behalf of people that listen to this podcast.

One of my first thoughts was because we've been getting a lot of really nice emails recently and a lot of like tweets and DMs that have like meant a lot to us. And so, one of my first thoughts was like, what about these people, what if some of these people saw this [who] I know are struggling and I know are going through stuff? What if these kinds of people saw this and don't have anyone to talk to?

SARAH: I'm remembering high school me, being faced with that girl who I looked up to saying that ace people shouldn't be allowed to call themselves queer. And I remember how that felt, even though I didn't understand yet that I was ace. I think I've talked about this before – I know I have, I don't know if it's aired yet, oops. It'll come at some point. But I remember feeling like horrible after that, and that was before I even knew I was ace, and I didn't figure out I was ace for another two years.

But in that intervening time, if I hadn't had that encounter, would I have been more likely to really consider that I might be ace? Because I may have felt more welcome in the community, it's possible. And so it's possible that with you saying these things, some little closeted ace kid is going to be like, okay, I don't belong in this community. There is no safe space for me.

KAYLA: Yeah. You could stunt people's development.

SARAH: And it's just, you're making it harder for people to find safe places, and you're making it harder for people to find the acceptance that, as some people said, they think ace people deserve. So why are you making it so hard for us?

KAYLA: Yeah. If people deserve it, why are you – I don't know. I'll just say, if any of you are struggling with this, we're here if you want to talk and you don't have anyone to talk to. I think it's very good that me and Sarah are able to talk about it to each other, and that Sarah is comfortable enough with other people that she can talk to them and vent to them. So, if you don't have that, please reach out, because we’re out here.

SARAH: Yeah. And whether you see that with a stranger online, whether you see that with a person you personally know, especially if it's a person you respect, it's very hard to hear and it's very hard to swallow and I get that, I understand that firsthand. So, if you don't have someone to talk to, or even if you do, and you still want to reach out to us, feel free.

I don't want to do a poll, but we're going to do a poll. The poll is something to do with this.

KAYLA: My thought on the poll was, do ace people belong in the LGBTQIA+ community?

SARAH: I don’t want to see the answers. Oh, yes or yes?

KAYLA: Yes, yes or yes.

KAYLA: That was my thought, because I also thought about yes or no and then I was like, mmm, I don't want to face that, so yes and yes.

SARAH: Also, we could, if we want to be sadder than that, we could also do, have you ever seen or experienced aphobia, and then the options being like in real life, on the internet? Both. Neither.

KAYLA: Yeah. That could be sad and good.

SARAH: All right. Well, it'll be a surprise. Check our Twitter to find out. You can find that @soundsfakepod on Twitter. You can also find us on Tumblr, soundsfakepod.tumblr.com, or email us soundsfakepod@gmail.com.

KAYLA: I will say that I've never experienced any of that bad stuff on Tumblr, so you can be sure that there will be none of that on our Tumblr. And if you follow the same blogs as us, you probably won't see it either. So that's a nice, safe place that you can have.

SARAH: Also, before we totally go into the end of the pod, I do want to say if you listened to this with the mindset that ace people don't belong, I hope we've changed your mind, or at least I hope we've given you something to think about. We didn't go into this podcast with the intention of @ing people. @ing, not adding. We didn't go into this podcast with the intention of trying to make people feel bad for believing this.

KAYLA: I don't want to make it seem I hate everyone that thinks this, and thinks that they are terrible people. I don't agree with you and I don't agree with your opinion and I wish you would think differently, but we're not going into this trying to hate people or make people feel bad.

SARAH: The point of doing this podcast was a) me and Kayla were very angry and we wanted to talk about it, but b) it's also about education. It's also about helping people understand what the ace umbrella community is experiencing, and help them understand that, we're people too. And that the queer community is about bringing each other together and raising each other up, and that we do belong in the [queer] community.

And even if you don't change your mind, which I hope you do, but even if you don't, that's not going to change the fact that ace people belong in the community, whether you like it or not, we're here to stay. And we're only going to become, I guess, stronger in our presence in that community. But also, I mean, if you disagree with us, we're happy to talk to you about it, if you're willing to do it in a civil way.

KAYLA: This podcast, I feel like this episode is kind of our version of that civil conversation we were talking about. And we are more than willing to continue that with anyone who is interested.

SARAH: And if you are on, I guess, our side with the belief that ace people do belong, and you face people on the internet or in real life who reject the ace identity or that ace people belong in the community, feel free to either direct them to this podcast, or feel free to talk about what we've talked about. It's important that people are as educated as possible, and we hope that we've contributed to that.

KAYLA: If anyone ever writes an essay about this, feel free to cite us.

SARAH: Yeah. Cite us. That'd be fun.

KAYLA: Cite me.

SARAH: And then send us your essay. I want to read it. That's all. I have – 

KAYLA: Obviously, time is over.

SARAH: Obviously we have a lot of thoughts, and I could go in circles on this for days, but we're going to call it there.

KAYLA: We’ll just end up saying the same things over and over again.

SARAH: Also, if this is your first time listening to the pod, welcome. We're usually not this mad or sad.

KAYLA: We’re usually funnier than this, to be honest, but what are you going to do?

SARAH: So goes it. Kayla, where can they listen to more pods?

KAYLA: You can listen anywhere you find your favorite podcasts. iTunes, SoundCloud, Stitcher Radio, not Spotify last I knew, still mad about it but whatever. 

SARAH: We also have a Patreon, patreon.com/soundsfakepod if you want to give us your money dollars. I just realized I don’t have the doc pulled up with the patrons, so I’m going to try and do this from memory.

For our $5 patrons we have Jennifer Smart, you can find her on YouTube by looking up Lehen Productions. Then we have Asritha Vinnakota, you can find her on Instagram @asritha_v. We also have Austin Le, he would like to promote the Twitch channel twitch.tv/k4ailey. Then we have Drew Finney, you can find him on Twitter @midwest_drew.

We also have our $10 patron, her name is Emma Fink. You can find her by looking up Emma T Fink on YouTube. I did that from memory.

KAYLA: Did you put the ‘e’ in Kailey? 

SARAH: I did put the ‘e’ in Kailey. 

KAYLA: Oh she even remembered the ‘e’ in Kailey. 

SARAH: I’m very proud of myself. Anyway, thank you for listening. Tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears. 

KAYLA: And until then, take good care of your cows.