Ep 35: Male Expectations and Masculinity feat. A Friend
SARAH: Hey what’s up hello. Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl (I’m Sarah. That’s me.)
KAYLA: And a demi straight girl (that’s me, Kayla.)
NATHAN: And me, Nathan. I’m a Nathan.
ALL: (laugh)
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else that we just don’t understand.
KAYLA: On today’s episode: Having a male guest?
ALL: — Sounds fake, but okay.
*Intro music*
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod.
KAYLA: Woo.
NATHAN: Woo.
KAYLA: Here’s a Nathan.
NATHAN: Hello.
SARAH: We have a Nathan. Nathan, tell us a bit about yourself.
NATHAN: I am almost graduated from the University of Michigan.
KAYLA: Oooh.
SARAH: Heck yeck.
NATHAN: I'm almost 22 years old, and I am a heterosexual white male.
KAYLA: We love that.
ALL: (laugh)
KAYLA: So, I guess just a disclaimer to this episode.
SARAH: Why is that a disclaimer?
KAYLA: Just because –
SARAH: Kayla, what are you doing?
KAYLA: Because usually, straight white men suck. And so, if Nathan says anything sucky, that's probably why.
NATHAN: (laughs)
SARAH: Oh my God.
NATHAN: I hope that I don’t.
KAYLA: Me too.
SARAH: You really set him up for failure.
KAYLA: I just want them to know going in, to set your bar low.
SARAH: Okay. So, the reason we wanted to do this episode was what, Kayla?
KAYLA: We needed to record a lot of episodes.
SARAH: Well yes. (laughs) But also, we thought it would be interesting, because obviously there are some heteronormative expectations for relationships. And so, we thought it'd be interesting to talk to a heterosexual, male human about those expectations, and how they are influenced.
KAYLA: Yeah, I was also telling Sarah, we have to put a man on the podcast, eventually.
SARAH: We do.
KAYLA: People have told us, because like a lot of the episodes where we talk about like dick stuff, we've had friends be like, that's just not how it works. And we're like, we know, that's why it's funny. But also, we probably should have a male perspective.
SARAH: But also, there's some stuff that I wouldn't feel comfortable talking to a guy about anyway.
KAYLA: Well yeah, so it’s like, I'm not going to talk about a guy's dick on an episode with the guy.
NATHAN: I would appreciate that.
SARAH: I wouldn't.
ALL: (laugh)
KAYLA: To me, my philosophy in life is that all the men in my life have no penises. I like to think of everyone as a Ken doll, because it makes me feel a lot more comfortable.
NATHAN: Oh yeah, that’s fair.
KAYLA: That’s fine, but now I'm thinking about penises, so let's stop that. Great.
SARAH: So as a male human, if you are in a relationship with a girl, are there any expectations that you feel like there's a lot of pressure for you to meet?
NATHAN: Oh yeah, definitely.
SARAH: Tell us more.
KAYLA: Tell me more.
NATHAN: So my best example for this is a couple of years ago, you probably remember I was in a relationship with a girl named Nicole. When we were first dating, she came up to me one time and started kissing me, and started undressing me. And I just went, can we not today?
KAYLA: (laughs) Me.
NATHAN: I'm just not feeling it. And she looked at me and just goes, what? And I was like, what do you mean? She's like, I just thought you were just ready to go all the time. And I was like, no, that is not how that works. And so, I feel like there's just a lot of pressure, and I've seen this with other people too. There’s this one Tumblr post going around where this girl was texting this guy, and how she was so pissed because she got like, so ready for everything to have a date with him. And then he just didn't want to have sex. And she was like calling him names and stuff, and it was just –
SARAH: Gross. I think I've seen that.
KAYLA: Well, because when I texted you about being on the episode and you were like, what is it going to be about? And I was like, it's going to be about males’ expectations in relationships, how they're supposed to be super sexual and not emotional. And you were like, Kayla, that's the literal exact opposite of what I am.
ALL: (laugh)
KAYLA: And I was like, I know. that's why it’s interesting. Because you are, you're probably one of the most emotional people I know in general, you're just very open with your emotions, which I think is great. But for a man –
SARAH: Opposite of me.
ALL: (laugh)
KAYLA: Literally yes.
SARAH: I just, unfortunately I fulfill some stereotypes that have nothing to do with my sexuality.
KAYLA: Yesterday. I came to Sarah with some feelings I had, because I was like not feeling great, and she did such a good job.
SARAH: I was very proud of myself.
KAYLA: I was also very proud of you. Because I went to her and I was like, I just need to talk out my problems, I'm not expecting much. But she was so good.
NATHAN: Progress.
KAYLA: Side note, Sarah's making it there. Anyway, so do you think that has played a weird part – Because you're very emotional, so has that gotten you into like “trouble”, I guess, in relationships or life in general?
NATHAN: I feel like it makes people think that I'm queer.
KAYLA: I have had people, I've told them that you're straight and they're like, oh.
NATHAN: Yeah. (laughs)
KAYLA: I’ve had that happen.
SARAH: But also we know each other from our theater – Well, we lived across the hall from you, but most of our mutual friends are in our theater group, where like very few people are straight.
KAYLA: Our proportion of straight people is so minuscule, it's actually pretty funny.
NATHAN: I think there's like maybe five of us.
KAYLA: I think, didn’t we count that one time?
SARAH: We counted, there was five people who were just straight-up straight.
KAYLA: Five or like, seven.
NATHAN: Out of thirty or forty.
KAYLA: I've definitely had people be like, oh I didn't think he was straight. And I'm like, no, he likes girls.
NATHAN: It tends to not necessarily cause problems when I'm in a relationship, but is a barrier to getting into a relationship.
SARAH: Because you're too emotional.
NATHAN: I feel like, because there's that thought that I'm not straight –
SARAH: People don't realize your attraction.
NATHAN: Yeah, people don't. Exactly.
SARAH: Okay, that makes sense.
NATHAN: Which is weird. Because then I I'm like, do I have to change how I act it? Should I have to?
SARAH: Do I have to walk up to you and say, hi, I'm straight. Nice to meet you.
KAYLA: Hi. Nice to meet you. I’m straight.
NATHAN: I am a straight.
KAYLA: We were just talking two episodes or three episodes ago about coming out as straight.
SARAH: It's all a blur because we're recording them all in a row.
KAYLA: No, it was episode 32, the gay agenda. We talked about –
NATHAN: Great episode.
KAYLA: Yeah.
ALL: (laugh)
SARAH: He hasn’t heard it yet.
KAYLA: He did.
NATHAN: I did.
KAYLA: He talked to me about it. He said he liked it.
SARAH: Oh wait, that’s the one we actually released. Okay, sorry.
KAYLA: But we talked about coming out as straight. So maybe Nathan, you need to come out as straight. Put out a video being like, listen guys I have something really serious talk to you guys about, I'm straight.
NATHAN: Just leave that as my pinned tweet.
SARAH: Yeah, ‘I'm straight’.
KAYLA: And then when you go to text a girl for the first time, you first just send that video, wait like five minutes for her to watch it. And then you're like aay, you up?
SARAH: You know how at the end of the emails you have your –
NATHAN: Your signature?
SARAH: And you know how like back in the day, it was a thing to have the signatures on your texts? Your signature on your texts should be like, Nathan, he/him/his, straight.
KAYLA: Nathan, MD, he/him/his, straight, cis, white, 22
SARAH: UMich, 2018.
KAYLA: That is great.
NATHAN: But going back to the thing with the emotions, that has actually been to my benefit, I’ve found –
SARAH: That's good.
NATHAN: When I'm in a relationship, because I feel like that makes the issue of communication not that big of an issue. Because then I can be like, okay, you're obviously angry at me and I'm a little peeved as well. Let's talk about that.
KAYLA: Because I feel like that's the problem with a lot of relationships is that people just don't talk, or don't perceive each other's emotions well. So, I would assume that you probably exceed the expectations of the people who you’re dating, in that area.
NATHAN: Well, and there's the whole expectation that like a guy is just going to like, hold all his stuff in? And the woman will have to chip away at it.
SARAH: Right, because I was going to ask, are people surprised that you're like that, or is it the sort of thing where it's like, once they get to know you, they sort of know what they're in for?
NATHAN: Yeah, because generally with the people I date with very few exceptions, I know who they are and they know who I am before we date. And so, they sort of know what they're getting into, at that point. But it's a lot of it is getting past that too, like you said, to let them know that I am an option. Like, hey, I may appear soft and cuddly compared to the ideal male, but I'm also straight.
KAYLA: Surprise.
SARAH: Date me.
ALL: (laugh)
SARAH: Yeah. That makes sense.
NATHAN: But recently I think, I have noticed this as a thing. So I've become, over the course of my college experience as you probably have noticed, I become like a lot more in tune with social justice stuff and with being more sensitive to things. And I feel like that has changed how people perceive me even more.
So, for an example, I don't know if you'd know this yet, this is a funny thing. I recently took a girl to go see a show, and while we were waiting for the show to start, I was like, are you free next Friday? Do you want to go see the new Avengers movie with me? I thought that was very clear that I was like, do you want to go on a date with me? And she's like, yeah, I'm free next Friday. Sure. And so, I was walking her back to her house, and right before we got into her house, I was like hey, I feel like we're close enough friends that you should know that I have feelings for you. And I don't want that to ruin our friendship at all. If you don't reciprocate, I'm fine with just being friends. And she's like, this is awkward. I literally just got a boyfriend two days ago. And I was like, okay. But after all the hints I was laying on you tonight, that never came up in conversation. Like, do you not think of me in that capacity at all? No matter how many hints that went down –
(10:00)
KAYLA: Oh, she wasn’t even thinking about it.
NATHAN: Yeah, so I don't know if that's just her [as] an individual being oblivious, or if that's just a thing with me now.
SARAH: That's interesting.
KAYLA: Huh.
SARAH: Because I feel like for me that's something I wouldn't necessarily – Well, no, that's not true. That's something that two years ago, I wouldn't have noticed, but now I'm like hyper aware of.
KAYLA: Yeah, you are very aware when you think you're flirting with people, or when you think people might like you.
SARAH: It stresses me out.
KAYLA: I know.
SARAH: But I would feel like if you're someone, especially if you've just gotten into a relationship, I that's feel like that's something that would be on your mind. So that's really interesting.
KAYLA: I feel like even when I'm not sure guys are flirting with me, I always try to slip it into a conversation if I’m dating someone at the time. I usually try to like, work that in just to cover my bases.
SARAH: Just in case.
NATHAN: Just preemptively, like, I have a boyfriend.
KAYLA: Just make things not awkward, just in case.
NATHAN: I know that's a meme and it’s funny thing, a guy walks up to you and is like, hey, can I have a tissue? Oh, I have a boyfriend. But like, seriously, that makes things so much easier, because if I know that you're not looking to engage in a relationship, I'll just be like, okay, fine, let's just be friends, that's fine and it decreases the room for error so much.
SARAH: And I also think that's like – Okay, because that can be a defense mechanism, right? If a girl is like, I feel like this guy is flirting with me, and I don't feel that he will take it well if I reject him, I need to tell him that I'm in a relationship, because he will respect this guy more than he will respect me. But maybe with this girl, she was like, well, I know you're going to respect me, so there's no need for me to bring it up. Even if that wasn't her exact line of thought, it could have just been subliminal.
NATHAN: Yeah. And that's something else that comes up a lot too, is that line of defense mechanism, because there is that whole, oh if I reject this guy, he might attack me, which is terrifying. And that's so frustrating for me because then I'm in this position where, okay, I want to tell this girl that I have feelings for her, but I also want to be friends with her if she rejects me, because I can handle that, me as a human. But then it's really awkward, because what if she doesn't grasp that concept?
KAYLA: You know what is interesting too, I've definitely had times where guys have like come up to me and ask for my number, and I give it to them even though I don't want to, just because I feel uncomfortable saying no. So as a guy, I can imagine if you're someone like you, where you're not going to take it badly, but then do you think in your head, if you got a girl's number, oh is she just giving it to me because she feels uncomfortable, not because she wants to? Is that something you think about?
ALL: (pause)
SARAH: It is going to be now.
ALL: (laugh)
KAYLA: That’s something I just ruined for you.
NATHAN: I got a girl's number on Tinder once, because I had this really funny joke, and then I texted her afterwards and she never responded. And I was just like, okay.
KAYLA: That’s the thing too, because I feel for me, it's easier to reject people on Tinder and online because you don’t have to look at them in the face. So that's even weirder to me.
SARAH: You can just ghost them.
KAYLA: Oh that's what I always did. All the amount of people I ghosted –
NATHAN: Which is fair, like I understand that. It’s just –
SARAH: And people might expect that on something like Tinder. It's like, yeah okay, someone's going to ghost me.
KAYLA: But if you would give them your number –
SARAH: That’s weird.
KAYLA: I don’t know, that seems – I don’t know.
NATHAN: It's just such a weird thing because while I am a straight male, I feel I am very atypical of what the expectations for that mean. And that is very frustrating, because that means that a lot of my interactions do not go the way I anticipate them to go.
KAYLA: Yeah. Because people just have way different expectations. What was it like – Okay, as a boy, just like growing up in a society, regardless of like the way you are which is atypical, what is it like growing up as a boy with those expectations?
NATHAN: Oh God.
KAYLA: Because I don't think, from what I know of your dad, he doesn't seem like he pressures you that much either. But I can imagine there's some boys growing up where their dads are really pressuring them to be a man’s man.
NATHAN: Oh no, I was very pressured to be a man’s man growing up.
KAYLA: Really? Oh no.
NATHAN: My dad tried to get me into as many sports as I possibly could be growing up.
KAYLA: Yikes.
NATHAN: And I'm not a sports person. Don't get me wrong, I love competition and I like being athletic when it's fun, but once I started getting into drama and I'm very into video games, anytime I would mess up a chore in the household, my dad would just be like, why can't you treat it like a video game? And was just very angry, and I was just like, I don't know.
KAYLA: I just missed a spot when I was sweeping the floor, sorry.
NATHAN: It's just there’s very different expectations. He was trying to teach me how to shoot a gun one time, and I just was not getting it at all. And then, ironically enough, he's like, why don't you just treat it like a video game? And then I was nailing it every time.
ALL: (laugh)
KAYLA: That one makes a lot more sense than sweeping.
NATHAN: Yeah, but it's like that where I feel a lot of my family, having also that idea of what a male is, didn't understand how to communicate their thoughts to me very well.
SARAH: And I think that's also interesting, because both me and Kayla grew up in families where we both have one sister, so we didn't grow up with a brother. I mean, I don't think my parents would have necessarily forced that, if I had been a boy, but I don't know how the vibe in my house would have been different if one of us had been a boy.
KAYLA: Most of my cousins are, well, I have two girl cousins and two boy cousins, and the boy cousins are younger than me. So, I kind of saw them grow up a little bit. I was still pretty young when they were growing up, but there would be times my one cousin, he is way more sensitive, especially as a kid, he'd be pretty sensitive. And my Papa, my grandpa just really likes to joke around and kind of like be a dick, but in a funny way.
As a kid, none of my cousins got that, we all would get really upset thinking he was yelling at us. And now that we're older, we're like, oh fuck you, we just joke around with him like the old man he is, and it's a funny time. But as a kid, we were all scared of him. And so especially my one cousin was like super terrified of him, was super sensitive. He would go in the back room in my grandparents' house and go under a blanket and cry. And my grandpa would always make fun of him and didn't really like him growing up, and his younger brother is more of – He’s not like a super guy’s guy, he's also very in touch with his emotions, but he has played football. And he's just really funny, like I swear to God he's going to grow up and be comedian.
So, my grandpa loved him, he's like his favorite. But it kind of sucks for my other cousin who is super sensitive and everything, because he was being treated differently than me and my other girl cousins were when we were growing up, and we would get really sensitive about my grandpa. But it wasn't okay for him to also be sensitive about it.
NATHAN: Well, and this is like, this brings up a really interesting point as well about the reverse of that, because I had a brother and a sister, but my little sister only had two brothers, and she's much more of a tomboy than my parents like. She's turning 16 soon and still wants to buy Transformers graphic tees. And my parents are like, can't you just like get a sun dress? And I'm like, why?
And then the other thing that this makes me think about is, I feel like a lot of my family members wanted to treat me differently as a child, and wanted to really push for that man's man thing, but because of my abnormal childhood situation – I don't really care about saying this on the pod I guess, my dad died. They were like, okay, we're going to coddle him and not be too aggressive about that. So, I think that's an abnormal thing with me, and how I grew up.
KAYLA: Yeah, that makes sense.
SARAH: I always wonder – So, my mom is very antiviolence and so when I was little, if we were at our friend's house and they had it, it was whatever; but we weren't allowed to have Nerf guns or BB guns, or weapon toys at all. And there was some stuff we weren't allowed to watch on TV because it was too “violent”. And then I turned into me, who – I own a sword.
ALL: (laugh)
SARAH: And I’m super into superhero movies, and the screenplay I wrote involves so much death. But obviously her trying to get not violence in the house failed. That was a poorly formulated sentence.
KAYLA: Great, loved it.
SARAH: But basically, I've always wondered if I had been a boy, would she have been more lenient about that? Because it's a more of a societal expectation that it's okay for boys to want to play violent games, or play with BB guns or that sort of thing. I'm not convinced my mom would have acted too much differently, but the way other people would have acted towards that decision on my mom's part, could've been very different.
KAYLA: I know of a lot of families with young kids that don't let them watch certain things because there's like a lot of – Like, I watched Looney Tunes growing up, but I know a lot of families that don't let their kids watch Looney Tunes because it's actually pretty violent. Like it's a cartoon, but like some shit goes down. So, like I've –
NATHAN: Also, the old Looney Tunes are pretty racist.
KAYLA: Oh yeah, definitely. So I know of families with young girls and boys that censor that kind of stuff.
(20:00)
NATHAN: I think that this discussion also leads to the opposite as well. My stepdad, who I just call my dad, very much discouraged me from crying, growing up. I feel like he felt ashamed whenever I cried, which was weird. We recently, or not recently, I guess it was a couple of years ago, but we went to go see Inside Out and he was like, that movie was boring, I didn't like it.
KAYLA: Oh my God, it was so good.
NATHAN: And I was, do you feel things?
ALL: (laugh) I was crying when the imaginary friend died, spoiler.
KAYLA: (laughs) It’s old.
NATHAN: But I don't understand how people don't feel that, or why would you not let yourself feel that? But that's just me.
SARAH: I cried a lot as a kid. I was a crier.
KAYLA: I cry a lot now.
SARAH: Much to my sister's dismay, because she said that I got all the attention because I just cried
KAYLA: Literally me as a kid.
SARAH: But it's interesting, because I was a very big crier, but I kind of turned into who I am now, which is like, I'm not openly emotional very much with people.
KAYLA: The thing is, you still cry pretty often.
SARAH: I do.
KAYLA: Most of the guys in my life I know are like, yeah, I cry two or three times a year. I know a lot of guys that have said that to me.
NATHAN: I heard a guy say that, I heard Jared say that to me. And I was like, I don't believe that.
SARAH: I’ve seen my dad cry I think twice.
KAYLA: I've seen my dad cry a couple of times. My current boyfriend and my ex-boyfriend both have said that. To be fair though, when me and my ex broke up, that bitch cried like a baby.
ALL: (laugh)
KAYLA: That was kind of satisfying, but also scary.
SARAH: But I turned into my dad, in the sense that I'm not openly emotional.
KAYLA: You are your dad.
SARAH: I am my dad, but my dad, I don't think he is that way because he's a guy, and that was conditioned to him. Just based on what I know about the way he was raised, and how my grandparents are, I don't think that was built into him because he was a guy, that's just how he is, and that's just how I ended up. But it's a much more normal thing, in society's mind for him to be like that, than for me to be like that.
NATHAN: And I think that’s bullshit.
SARAH: Which like, let me tell you, being an emotionally closed-off person is not really helpful.
KAYLA: It’s not.
SARAH: I wouldn't really recommend it.
NATHAN: Yeah, the girl who I went to go see that show with, she reminded me of you in the sense that she's not very openly emotional in that capacity. And then I was thinking about that afterwards, I was like, yeah, that's the kind of person, with that kind of personality, that I feel would mesh well with me, because we're opposites in that aspect. Which I think is interesting, because I feel like a lot of like societal norms would be like, that should be reversed.
KAYLA: The guy should be the closed one.
NATHAN: Which, I don't know necessarily how that will play out for me in the future but I hope that whoever I do end up with understands that, and doesn’t –
KAYLA: I’m sure you’ll find a nice closed-off girl one day.
ALL: (laugh)
NATHAN: Just somebody who will ground me.
KAYLA: You do need someone, yeah.
SARAH: But then I also wonder about if you're talking about a gay couple, like if you're talking about gay men. Gay men are often viewed as more effeminate, but they're also still men. So, you have these two different stereotypes fighting each other.
KAYLA: Well people always ask, oh who’s the girl in the relationship? And it’s like, what does that even mean?
SARAH: That doesn't mean anything.
NATHAN: I was at a pool party recently, and there was like a cartwheel-off, basically? We were all comparing to see who could cartwheel the best.
SARAH: Mine would have been the best, I'm just going to say that right now.
NATHAN: And I did a really good cartwheel and then everybody, we kept doing other athletic stuff like that. And then one other person just goes, I think we're all a little surprised that Nathan's doing the best here. I’m like, what does that mean?
KAYLA: See, to me, you told me that story. To me, that's just more of a youth thing than you being your gender, or whatever.
NATHAN: I guess, but I feel like also, because of the way I present myself, people see me as more effeminate, and not as capable of doing things like that.
KAYLA: Because when I think about you, athletic is never something that comes to mind.
NATHAN: For those people who have never seen me in person, I'm about 5’11 and just a very thick frame.
KAYLA: Are you that tall?
NATHAN: Yeah.
KAYLA: You don’t seem that tall.
NATHAN: I don't, because I'm thick. So, I look more wide than I am tall, but I am tall.
KAYLA: That's exciting.
SARAH: I learned a new thing today.
KAYLA: Well, what do you know?
SARAH: But that's actually really interesting to me, because I grew up doing dance and gymnastics, which are both seem to be more feminine sports. Gymnastics not as much as dance, but a couple of summers ago, I coached gymnastics over the summer and in the preschool classes for kids under six, it was boys and girls together. And if there was a boy in the class, it would be one of them.
KAYLA: We did not have many boys that danced at my studio.
SARAH: At dance, I think total guys who I ever danced with, maybe five total.
KAYLA: I'd say four over my fourteen-year dance career.
SARAH: And so, those are seen as more feminine sports for some reason. But if you look at the athletic skill necessary, both for dance and gymnastics, if we're talking stereotypes, how is this seen as more feminine?
NATHAN: Well, also the other thing that makes me laugh is people are, okay, if you are in dance and you're a guy, you're probably more effeminate. And if you're in football, you're masculine, but let's pause on that for a second. Which is more “masculine”, being in a locker room with a whole bunch of semi-naked boys watching porn, or being in really skin-tight clothes with a whole bunch of other girls.
SARAH: I feel a lot of people are like, why don't more guys do dance? There are so many girls, that you're going to dance with so many girls. I mean, on one hand, yeah. On the other hand –
KAYLA: Why does it matter?
NATHAN: But then you're seen as feminine by probably those girls.
KAYLA: Also, why are you using girls as your motivation?
NATHAN: And that's not the point I'm trying to make.
SARAH: No, I know.
NATHAN: But when I was at that same pool party, it was me and Perry, me and one other guy. And the mom of the person who was hosting the party came up to me and took me aside and was like, you both, pointing at Perry, are very smart boys.
KAYLA: Oh my God.
NATHAN: And I was like, okay, really? Of all the girls who are here, the majority of them are either gay or ace. So that's not really an option.
KAYLA: So like, no.
SARAH: I'm trying to think of the guys we danced with. I know at least one of them is gay, but I know at least one of them is straight. So, it's not like their choice of sport has any bearing on their sexuality.
NATHAN: Yeah, it's just like, this is dumb, but there's just a lot of very gendered things in society, and they don't need to be gendered.
KAYLA: I have a thing that's not sports. I'm going to change the subject because I thought of it – I was thinking about it earlier and then I forgot. So you, I remembered it because you were like, oh guys in the locker room watching porn together. So, I've had a guy friend telling me before that he doesn't really like watching porn, but as a middle schooler, he got pressured into watching it, because all of his guy friends were like, we're all watching it. If you don't like, masturbate –
SARAH: They wouldn’t even know if you didn’t.
KAYLA: No, but they were like, if you don't masturbate, you're not a real guy or whatever. Is that like a thing? I know this is kind of personal.
NATHAN: Yeah so I didn't watch porn until my stepbrother showed me. And that's weird, I think. I feel like we can both say it is weird.
KAYLA: It’s not my favorite thing I’ve ever heard.
NATHAN: But when I was in eighth grade, some random asshole was interrogating me for whatever reason when I was on the football team, and was like, you watch porn right? And I was like, no.
KAYLA: So this is a thing that guys talk about?
NATHAN: Yeah, and I went home and I was talking to my mom and I was like, mom, I think I'm the only person in my football team who has not watched porn. And she was like, what? Because I'm 13. I'm like, this guy was talking to me today. I didn't know that was a thing that football players talk about.
ALL: (laugh)
NATHAN: It was very strange, how the discussion of porn happens. I'll be open and honest, yeah I watch porn, but I feel people – I definitely feel it's a pressure thing, at the beginning.
SARAH: For sure.
KAYLA: Well yeah, because I guess I never thought – Because no one when I was in school, I never talked to people about porn. My experience of porn was I watched Friends as a kid, and there was a lot of jokes about porn on the show. And so, to me, when I was growing up, I was like, oh this is something that adult men do, because it was adult men on the show doing it. So, it never even crossed my mind that my classmates would have been watching it.
SARAH: Especially in middle school. I think maybe like, junior or senior year of high school, I would have been like, okay, they probably are.
KAYLA: Probably, but it was never something I was thinking about. So, to hear that guys are actually talking about it and pressuring each other to watch it, that's just so fucked up to me.
NATHAN: It’s super fucked up. The whole thing of porn is just weird. In this discussion of straight men and the expectations that go with it, there's just a lot of really weird stuff because, somebody pointed this out to me and was like, why do straight men watch lesbian porn? What is the –
KAYLA: What is that?
NATHAN: And the answer that was given to me, I think it came from an article written by a doctorate of psychology. It was men watch lesbian porn predominantly because they envision themselves being able to come into that space, and take advantage of it.
(30:00)
KAYLA: (groans)
SARAH: I hate it.
KAYLA: I hate that a lot.
NATHAN: Which is messed up in so many different ways. And I'll be open, I don't really watch lesbian porn.
KAYLA: Good, good to know.
NATHAN: It doesn't do anything for me. And so, it makes me think of my peers, I guess, my male heterosexual [peers], I'm like, why do you feel that urge to do that?
SARAH: Yeah. I also know a lot of porn is created for straight men. It's created with them in mind, so a lot of times the women in these pornos are not necessarily treated with –
KAYLA: We had a whole episode on porn, didn’t we?
NATHAN: Well they also fake orgasms a lot too.
SARAH: Yeah, we did have an episode on porn.
KAYLA: So we kind of talked about this.
SARAH: But it's just like, it’s – (pause) Wow, struggling with sentences. But it's created with the assumption that it's going to be straight men watching it.
KAYLA: But also, the thought of guys in school pressuring each other to watch porn is also – I think it's hard enough for young queer men in school situations. But if you think about, if you're a young queer boy and your classmate is coming up to you and like, oh do you watch porn? That's going to make you feel even more like you’re kind of an outcast if you're like, no, I'm not watching porn because I also, I'm not attracted to that. Then what –
NATHAN: Oh, and here's the other thing, and this messed me up when I first thought about it. The expectation of what happens when you're caught watching porn. Because I was originally caught watching porn –
KAYLA: Oh that sucks.
NATHAN: By my parents, and they were like, just don't do it again. And I was like, okay, whatever. But a family member of mine who was a closeted gay man, was caught watching gay porn. And that was a whole ordeal because that's how the family found out.
KAYLA: That's not good.
NATHAN: And so I don't know how he started watching porn, but if he was pressured into watching porn by his contemporaries and that outed him, how fucked up is that?
KAYLA: That's awful.
SARAH: That's really fucked up.
KAYLA: That's so bad. Especially if you're a young ace boy and people are like, watch porn, and you're like, I literally have no desire, but then you're like, I should. So, then you watch it anyway so then you're stunted for more years, being confused about your sexuality, because I feel like a lot of young –
SARAH: Because you’re like, I feel like I should be having a reaction to this but I’m not.
KAYLA: Because I think a lot of young ace people are pretty confused anyway –
NATHAN: This is like – I'm not ace, we know that, but putting myself into an ace person’s shoes, there have been times where I've been watching porn, and it just isn't doing it for me. And then I start analyzing the storyline, and I'm just like, this is unrealistic for several reasons.
ALL: (laugh)
KAYLA: That’s bad.
NATHAN: And I'm like, I wonder if this is what other people feel, if it does not do anything. But you can't show somebody else a porn and be like, please analyze this with me.
SARAH: Let's watch this porno together and analyze the storyline. How effective is the plot?
NATHAN: (laughs) That literally happened to me one time, I was watching a porn and then the ending happened, and it wrapped up the story really nicely. And I was like, as an English major, I'm like, oh I appreciated that. And I was like, but I'll never ever be able to share this with anyone ever again.
ALL: (laugh)
KAYLA: Because that’s weird.
NATHAN: Because then they will know my sexual preferences, and I don't want that.
KAYLA: Oh my God, yikes.
SARAH: I hate that.
NATHAN: So, yeah.
KAYLA: What a fun time.
SARAH: Incredible.
NATHAN: Not where I thought this conversation was going to go.
SARAH: You know what, do they ever though?
KAYLA: Sometimes we’ve got to talk about uncomfortable things so I can understand men, because I don't understand men.
SARAH: You know what I was trying to think of, if there was any comparable, not in terms of content, but comparable in terms of how much pressure there is, to that whole thing of young boys are like, are you watching porn? You should be watching porn, whatever. For girls, is there anything that's comparable in terms of how much pressure is placed on them?
KAYLA: I think when you start wearing a bra, and when your period starts.
SARAH: See, that was never a thing for me.
KAYLA: It wasn't a thing for me either, but I feel like I've heard of that being a thing before, of girls getting their period before others and being like –
SARAH: I just think that's so weird because when I was a youth, obviously I have very different mindset than a lot of girls I think on this, I think in large part because I did gymnastics. Where I was very into gymnastics and I was, I have to look like a gymnast and gymnasts don't have big boobs, gymnasts don't have hips. And so, in my mind, I want to put this off as long as I possibly can. But I know a lot of other people don't necessarily have that mindset.
KAYLA: Well, I think – It's not just for girls, it’s a thing for everyone is how old you are when you have your first kiss, or when you first have sex. Because I was watching a video recently and people were talking about how old they were when they had their first kiss. And they were like, I was 16, so pretty old.
SARAH: I know I hate it when –
KAYLA: And I was like, I was 16, my first kiss. And I didn't think I was very old for that.
SARAH: I've seen videos where people talk about how old they were when they had their first kiss or the first time they had sex and it's like, anyone who was older than probably 15 when they had their first kiss, and anyone who was older than 17 the first time they had sex, they're almost embarrassed by how old they were.
KAYLA: Well, I was older than both of those thresholds. And I was like, this feels correct to me. I feel like I did this at the right time for me, but for everyone else – And I can imagine for guys, it might be even an early younger age that you’re [feeling] like you should be having sex and doing stuff.
NATHAN: I was 14 when I had my first kiss.
KAYLA: So young.
NATHAN: So young.
SARAH: What a youngster.
KAYLA: That's sophomore year of high school. So, that's, I feel that makes sense.
NATHAN: But the interesting thing about that was that, it was my first kiss –
SARAH: No, that’s freshman year.
NATHAN: No, I was a sophomore. I'm young.
SARAH: Same. Okay. Numbers get me confused. Because I'm younger than everyone.
NATHAN: But the girl who I kissed was 13 and she had already had her first kiss, which was interesting. And then I didn't have sex until I was 18, which I don't view as young – [I mean] as old. I viewed that as young. I'm like, that was the correct time for me.
KAYLA: I feel like it's an average, because that’s when you start college. I feel that would be a quite normal time.
SARAH: I feel when you're in high school, how do you have sex in high school? You live in your parents' house. How, where –
KAYLA: There was kids that had sex in the middle of our baseball field one time.
SARAH: Yeah, that's –
KAYLA: They got caught.
ALL: (laugh)
KAYLA: We were having band practice and we were like, what's going on out there? That seems weird.
NATHAN: I mean, a lot of it is in the back of cars.
KAYLA: Which seems so uncomfortable.
SARAH: That just seems like you’re limited in space.
KAYLA: There was a rumor around these kids that were in my grade in high school that people were like, they parked outside soccer fields and they like had sex in the car, and it was like this big thing going around. And I was like, okay but also that sounds uncomfortable, why?
NATHAN: The thing with me is that, I definitely could have had sex earlier if I had wanted to, but I just didn't, because my high school girlfriend, we got left alone all the time. And then we would like make out and stuff in her house, but she was just like, I don't really want to go any further. I'm like, okay.
KAYLA: Okay, cool.
SARAH: That’s fine.
NATHAN: And it's stuff like that, I feel if – She knew who I was at that time, so she knew I wasn't going to pressure her. But I feel like if she had been alone in a house with another guy, she might've felt that pressure to do that.
KAYLA: Yeah, she would have.
SARAH: It's wild and it's stupid. Kayla, Nathan, what's the poll?
KAYLA: Do you have a poll idea?
NATHAN: I sure don’t.
ALL: (laugh)
SARAH: Us, every episode.
KAYLA: I was thinking of doing one, like how often do you cry? But I don't know, I couldn’t think of a good way to lay that out.
SARAH: Yeah. I don't know what the average is either.
NATHAN: So, less than three times a year.
SARAH: Three times a week, three times a day.
KAYLA: So, I don't think that one would work. So, I don't know.
NATHAN: I cried the second time I watched Avengers, and the first time.
KAYLA: I didn’t cry at all, which is surprising for me.
SARAH: You know what's interesting is I didn't cry the first time I watched Infinity War because I was like, I know –
NATHAN: Spoilers.
SARAH: Because I was like, I know that a lot of these characters aren't dead because I know they have more movies. So I was like, whatever. But then the second time, I didn't cry, but I got kind of teared up when I was watching the ending because I was like, I know what's about to happen, and I know that what you just said, are your last words.
NATHAN: I cried because, like we said, I know a lot of these characters are coming back, but just putting myself in the shoes of characters like Rocket, just the emotional trauma that they're going through.
KAYLA: Yeah, like all their friends died.
NATHAN: Like that just (sighs).
KAYLA: (sings) All my friends are dead.
SARAH: Or like Wanda and Peter Quill, both had to –
NATHAN: Side note, Elizabeth Olsen. Holy cow, she's attractive.
SARAH: She's a nice-looking lady.
NATHAN: She's a very nice-looking lady.
SARAH: You know, I saw a picture of the Olsen twins yesterday, and one of them looks 15 years older than the other
KAYLA: Cool.
NATHAN: Drugs will do that to you.
KAYLA: Wait, they didn’t do drugs, I don't think. Maybe they did.
SARAH: I think they did.
(40:00)
KAYLA: I read an article about them recently, I don't remember. They run a nice fashion company now.
SARAH: Anyway, what’s the poll?
KAYLA: I don’t know.
SARAH: Okay, how about this?
NATHAN: I’m down with the crying one.
SARAH: How about –
NATHAN: When did you cry in Infinity War?
ALL: (laugh)
KAYLA: At what point?
SARAH: How about how embarrassed are you, if you cry in front of someone you know well?
KAYLA: I'll cry in front of a fucking stranger, who gives a shit?
NATHAN: I'm pretty sure I knew you for maybe three months when I cried in front of you.
KAYLA: I'm sure I knew you for a day before I cried in front of you.
NATHAN: That’s probably not true.
SARAH: I've never intentionally cried in front of –
KAYLA: I’ve never intentionally –
NATHAN: I’m almost certain I’ve seen you cry.
SARAH: Oh, I’m sure you have.
KAYLA: I’ve never intentionally cried in front of anyone, Sarah.
SARAH: I’m also sure I tried my very best for you not to see it.
KAYLA: There was the large time during sophomore year where I was having some health issues, and I would literally be sitting in the middle of class sobbing, because I make eye contact with my professor. They'd know, they knew.
SARAH: I saw someone in the dining hall on the phone. I watched the conversation like, curve to the side and she was crying and I was like, oh no.
NATHAN: This is like a really quick side story, but I was in a women's studies class. First of all, it was awesome. Second of all –
KAYLA: I loved the women’s studies class I took.
NATHAN: Something in that class legitimately triggered me, and I was crying and my professor made eye contact with me and mouthed, you can go. And then she emailed me afterward, and she took that portion of the exam off for me.
KAYLA: Oh my God.
NATHAN: Which was awesome.
KAYLA: That's so nice. It's so wonderful.
SARAH: That's kind and thoughtful. Shout out to the women's studies professors.
KAYLA: The women's studies department is great. I was in a women's studies class when the most recent election happened and they had a – We had class the day after the election. And all of the GSIs just sat with us and they talked to us about it, and they were like, our offices are always open if you need anything, they were so wonderful about it.
SARAH: I had an 8:30am the next day after the election and that class, there were no cis males in that class. It was mostly girls, some non-binary, a lot of minorities. And so, we sat there for the first – Hour and a half class; first half an hour, 45 minutes, my professor was just like, is there anything anyone wants to like talk about? And so, we just like talked about shit for the first half.
NATHAN: I had a paper due the day after the election, and I emailed my professor at 3:30 in the morning like, there's no way I'm getting this paper done, I'm too emotionally distressed. And she just canceled the paper, she's like, nobody needs to do this today.
KAYLA: I heard about a lot of exams being canceled around then too. It was a trying time.
SARAH: On a campus like this, it was a time.
NATHAN: Well, that's something else to consider too, like what does – Sorry, I keep rambling
SARAH: You’re fine.
NATHAN: But what is the stereotypical male at the University of Michigan? Because I feel as a very, very liberal campus, do the expectations change?
KAYLA: You would think they might, but I don't think they do.
NATHAN: Excluding Greek life. (laughs)
SARAH: I was just thinking of frat guys
KAYLA: Yeah, because my first thought of the stereotypical male at U of M, I think of a frat guy but I guess excluding them, I would say yeah, because so many people are on this campus that are liberal. A lot of the men I know from this campus that aren’t in Greek life are, I would say, more emotional than I guess you would expect from a guy, or more understanding –
SARAH: More aware of their own –
NATHAN: I feel like there's not a lot of straight guys outside of Greek life. (laughs)
KAYLA: That might be true, to be honest.
SARAH: I think it depends where you look, but that might be true.
KAYLA: I mean, I found some, but yeah.
SARAH: I think on a Quidditch team, most of the guys are straight, but also it's a sports team and that kind of falls into other stereotypes of athletes. Anyway. So, the poll is, how comfortable would you feel crying in front of someone you know well? One being, not comfortable at all, I would rather crawl into a hole and die. Two being, I would try to avoid it or get out of it somehow.
NATHAN: So the Costello option.
SARAH: The Costello option. For those of you who don't know, my last name's Costello. Listen, they don't all follow me on Twitter.
KAYLA: That’s true. They shouldn’t, because it’s awful.
SARAH: (laughs) Three is I just kind of accept it, I'd be okay with it. And four would be –
NATHAN: The Kayla option.
KAYLA: The Kayla option: I don't give a flying shit.
SARAH: I think four would be the Kayla option being, I literally don't care, I'm fine with it.
KAYLA: I don't give a shit who sees me crying.
NATHAN: I have actively sought out to cry in front of people sometimes.
SARAH: Literally not me.
KAYLA: I haven’t gotten that far.
NATHAN: No, but when I know I'm about to break down, I've gone to see people and I’m like, I need you right now.
SARAH: See, when I know I'm going to break down, I leave people
KAYLA: Sarah goes to her room, and we go, hmm.
NATHAN: Do you guys remember when I used to get drunk and hide behind couches?
KAYLA: No no no, you did not hide –
ALL: (laugh)
KAYLA: Okay, I used to be Nathan's care-keeper when he was drunk, our first two years, my first two years of college. He's found some others now.
NATHAN: I'm not even that bad.
KAYLA: He’s not that bad anymore. But there was this girl that he really liked, and she liked someone else. And so, we were at a party with these people –
NATHAN: Oh, the drunk running.
KAYLA: Well, the drunk running too. So he got really upset, and he was very drunk and I believe I was quite sober. And so, he laid behind a couch and was just very sad. But also, he was laying on his back and I was like, you're going to vomit and you're going to choke and you're going to die. So, I kept trying to get him to roll over, and he was not having it. And then he got even more upset and he drunk-ran home, and we didn't know he had left. He didn't tell us he left, and we were like, he might've just died. We cannot keep an eye on him if he's just going to run. It was, oh my God.
SARAH: Incredible.
KAYLA: Nathan has no shame, moral of the story.
NATHAN: I do now.
KAYLA: Nathan had no shame.
SARAH: Anyway, you can find that poll which we’re not going to recap, it’s just going to be on the poll. You can find that poll on our Twitter @soundsfakepod, you can also find us on Tumblr soundsfakepod.tumblr.com. You can also email us soundsfakepod@gmail.com.
KAYLA: Nathan has emailed us sometimes.
SARAH: He has.
KAYLA: It’s been fun.
SARAH: When he could just text us, but he emailed us.
KAYLA: But I was a fan of that, I like getting emails.
SARAH: Because then we can both see it.
KAYLA: It’s like getting mail.
NATHAN: I texted you recently with a fun idea.
KAYLA: You did, that’s true.
SARAH: Alright, Kayla where can they listen?
KAYLA: You can listen anywhere you find your podcasts. iTunes, SoundCloud, Stitcher Radio, anywhere you’re feeling it. Check us out, give us a review, leave us a comment. I also like when people give us a good comment; even if it’s not so nice, that’s okay. We’ll keep it in mind, and probably not change anything.
SARAH: Okay, cool. We also have a Patreon, you can find us at patreon.com/soundsfakepod if you want to give us money. We have patrons, so for our $5 patrons we have Jennifer Smart, her YouTube can be found at Lehen Productions. We also have Asritha Vinnakota, her Instagram is @asritha_v. Then we have Austin Le, he recently changed his promotion. His promotion is now going to be twitch.tv/k4iley –
KAYLA: Why make it easy for us?
SARAH: I was about to say Kailey with a 4, but then I was like there are so many ways to spell Kailey.
ALL: (laugh)
KAYLA: The 4 could be anywhere.
NATHAN: The 4 is an A.
SARAH: But he would like to advertise it as the stream where he met his first girlfriend, as explained many episodes ago.
KAYLA: Yeah, that was several episodes ago, so if you remember that one –
SARAH: So he hopes that other listeners might find love there, which is nice.
KAYLA: Aw, that’s cute. That’s very sweet.
SARAH: Then our other $5 patron is Drew Finney, you can find him on Twitter @midwest_drew.
Our $10 patron is Emma, you can find her on YouTube by looking up Emma T Fink. Thanks for listening, and thank you Nathan for joining us.
KAYLA: Thank you Nathan.
NATHAN: No, thank you.
KAYLA: Do you have anything you want to promote, for being on?
NATHAN: Yeah, I guess I’m on Twitter @naffandennison, so you can find me there and if I ever write a book, you know –
KAYLA: Nathan’s been writing a book, and we’ll post his Twitter handle when we post this episode, we’ll tag him and everything. But he has some occasional good tweets.
SARAH: Occasional. (laughs)
NATHAN: Every now and then. My pinned tweet’s pretty good.
KAYLA: The interesting thing about your Twitter too, is you actually have some very emotional stuff, you often talk about your emotions very openly on Twitter, so I think that’s very interesting.
SARAH: Can’t relate.
ALL: (laugh)
KAYLA: Just to wrap it up, if you want to see a man being emotional, check out Nathan’s Twitter.
NATHAN: Oh no. (laughs) Thanks for having me on the pod.
SARAH: Of course, thanks for being here.
KAYLA: You’re welcome, we had a great time.
SARAH: Tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.
KAYLA: And until then, take good care of your cows.