Ep 33: Dress Codes

SARAH: Hey what’s up hello. Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl (I’m Sarah. That’s me.)

KAYLA: And a demi straight girl (that’s me, Kayla.)

SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else that we just don’t understand.

KAYLA: On today’s episode: School dress codes.

BOTH: — Sounds fake, but okay.

*Intro music*

SARAH This is Sarah and Kayla from the future. We have one thing to say, what is it?

KAYLA: Announcement. So, for this summer, we're changing up our Patreon a bit, since we're going to be away from each other and things are going to be a little different. So, for this summer, if you will go to our Patreon and donate $2 or more a month, you get every episode of the summer a day free.

SARAH A day free?

KAYLA: (laughs) A day early. Also – Well I guess it’s not for free anymore. So you'll get new episodes on Saturday instead of Sunday.

SARAH Yes. And that will be instead of the perk where you can vote on things, not that you guys were really doing that anyway. But yeah, during the summer, because me and Kayla are not going to be in the same place. we have to pre-record a bunch, so we can't do that. So, we're doing the day early and they're actually going to be on time, because we're pre-recording.

KAYLA: Wild.

SARAH Not all of them, but many of them. So that's all, back to the pod. Boop boop boop.

KAYLA: That was a really loud swallow.

SARAH Kayla’s drinking – 

KAYLA: (slurps)

SARAH No, stop that, stop that.

KAYLA: ASMR me. I'm really tired. And I was like, I need energy to pod two pods every day this week. Because that's what we’re doing.

SARAH We’re podding two times every day this week, so we can – 

KAYLA: Stack up for the summer. We have three guests coming over, we scheduled them, they’re in my calendar because we are official ladies. So, get lit.

SARAH So, this week we're talking about school dress codes. You had a specific example that kind of spurred this.

KAYLA: So, I don't know why we hadn't thought of this before. When we thought of it, we were like literally, what's wrong with us? But so, my boyfriend went to a Catholic school. Should I say what school it is?

SARAH No.

KAYLA: Okay. He went to a Catholic school here in the state of Michigan. And recently they've been making news like, CNN, they were on the Daily Mail snap story, the lady – I’ll get into this, okay. So their prom is coming up, because it's high school prom season. And they sent out this picture to their students of this really ugly felt poncho, and they're calling it the modesty poncho. So, if a girl goes to prom and is not following the prom guidelines for dress, she has to put on this ugly, ugly poncho.

SARAH What are the guidelines?

KAYLA: The guidelines are – I think it can't be too low of a neck line. It can't be two pieces. Because I know the two-piece – 

SARAH Two-pieces are so cute though.

KAYLA: I know, they're really in style now. They were not in style when we were in school – 

SARAH I know, they became in style like a year or two after we were promming.

KAYLA: Yeah. But I don't think my school would have let us either.

SARAH My school didn't really care what you wear to prom in all honesty, they were just like, whatever, they're seniors.

KAYLA: My school had junior-senior prom.

SARAH Because at my school, high school prom is seniors only. Unless you get asked by a senior.

KAYLA: See ours is junior-senior. And also if you get asked, so a lot of sophomores go. I went to prom as a sophomore, and I know several people that do and have.

SARAH In my school, my dress to prom had a strap on one side, but not the other. There were plenty of people that had strapless dresses at prom, and my school didn't care. Even though that technically broke the dress code.

KAYLA: My first prom dress had no sleeves. My second one had a strap on one side, and my third one had straps, but it was open back and I had a really high slit.

SARAH Because she was a scandalous lady.

KAYLA: She’s a scandalous lady. But anyway, so their rules I don't think are more outlandish than most schools. From what I've heard of their prom dress code, it seems pretty standard. However, there was huge backlash from the students. And so, students got really mad and one kid, I guess went off on Twitter, and she I think might've gotten suspended because the school, it's a Catholic school so they wear uniforms. Guys can't even have facial hair. They have to be shaved.

SARAH What the fuck?

KAYLA: I know, it was bananas. And I guess – 

SARAH Is that why he has such facial hair, because he couldn't do whatever in high school?

KAYLA: He could in high school because he was in musicals, and he always convinced his director to let him have facial hair just to stick it to the man, I guess. But guys [can’t] have hair lower than their ears. No facial hair, their uniform and stuff.

SARAH What's the reasoning for that?

KAYLA: I have no idea.

SARAH Because when you think about schools and the reasons they have dress codes, I just can't imagine how they could back that up.

KAYLA: I have no idea.

SARAH In terms of why they have this dress code.

KAYLA: Honestly, I feel with Catholic schools and private schools, dress codes and uniforms are so common that people just don't question it. Like we have another friend who went to a Catholic middle school I think. And he was like, oh you couldn't have long hair. And he was like, I kind of liked it.

SARAH I mean, it's also definitely, this is a very American thing because a lot of other countries like the UK, Australia, I know – I don't know as much about non-English speaking countries, but a lot of other countries, it is very common to have to wear a uniform your entire school career up until college. In the United States, public schools don't have uniforms. They have dress codes; some are stricter than others. So, when I was in school, your shorts were supposed to be at least fingertip length on your leg, which I think is a stupid rule because people have different length arms.

KAYLA: Yeah, I had several friends that just had very long arms, and that rule was hard for them. 

SARAH I have long arms.

KAYLA: No midriff.

SARAH If you had a tank top, it had to be at least three fingers wide. 

KAYLA: No hats, we could not have hats.

SARAHI think I had some teachers that wouldn't let us wear hats. So, my band director wouldn't let us wear hats.

KAYLA: It was a school thing, no hats.

SARAH For us, in high school – I think previous to that, it might've been a rule. But in high school, I believe you were allowed to wear a hat. Don't hold me to that.

KAYLA: We couldn't even wear hoods. Not dress code related, but until high school, no chewing gum.

SARAH Yeah. That's a thing.

KAYLA: I think they tried to take away gum at one point when I was in high school because it was getting disgusting.

SARAH I remember in middle school, the whole fingertip-length shorts thing, it wasn't really enforced, but there were a couple of teachers who were really sticklers about it. So, you had to be careful whenever you were – Because when I was in middle school, a lot of times the teachers would stand right outside their door during passing time, just to keep an eye on the young’uns. And so, if you were passing by her classroom, you had to be careful.

KAYLA: I think in my school it was mostly the administration that was most strict about it, our principals and our vice principals. Did you see the recent news story that a girl was at school and she wasn't wearing a bra? So, the girl, she was bigger – She at least had bigger boobs.

SARAH Her boobs weren't that big. I saw a picture – Did you see a picture?

KAYLA: They’re bigger than mine

SARAH Yeah, but you don't have big boobs. I would say she had average size boobs.

KAYLA: But so, she was wearing a baggy t-shirt and no bra. And the administration told her, you have to put Band-Aids over your nipples, which turned out to make her nipples just like way more prominent. This one BuzzFeed channel I watched, the lady, they did a test of it – 

SARAH I watched that video.

KAYLA: And they went a day and they wore Band-Aids over the nipples. And this girl, the woman that tested it, got a welt on her boobs, because that's really sensitive skin. And so it actually ended up hurting her.

SARAH And some people – I watched the video too, one of the people in the video was like, I do that every day, its fine. But then, that's not necessarily going to be the case for everyone because obviously with her – 

KAYLA: It also seems so inappropriate to me, for someone to be telling a minor in high school, an adult to be telling a minor, put these Band-Aids on your nipples, because that draws direct attention to it. And it means that that adult was like looking at this child's nipples.

SARAH And they made her like jump around to make sure.

KAYLA: They did jump tests. How humiliating is that?

SARAH So humiliating. And she said that there really was no difference in how she looked. But it's, ugh.

KAYLA: So going back to the modesty poncho thing, because I was talking to my boyfriend about it and he was like, you know, when you enter the school, you sign an agreement that you follow all the dress codes. Everyone was aware that these were the dress codes. So, he was like, I don't see why there's so much backlash, why it's getting national attention and why students are actually going to the news.

And I was listen, does the private school, any school for that matter, have a right to make a dress code and have a uniform? Yes. But that doesn't mean they should. Because he kept saying like, well the school has rights to do this. The school is allowed to do this within their power. Yes, they can do that. That doesn't mean that they should, because it's extremely objectifying to students, especially female students. And I know my school always had a thing, an issue where girls were very highly policed, and the guys were not.

SARAH They don't police male students really at all.

KAYLA: So male students would - Back in the day when it was a thing to have like your underwear showing, you had baggy jeans and your underwear showing, guys would wear tank tops and whatever. And no one in the school did anything about it.

(10:00)

SARAH I think the only time I've ever seen a guy get in trouble is if they had profanity on their shirts. That was the only time.

KAYLA: I saw it if they had beer labels on their shirts, or hats and hoods.

SARAH Yeah, you can’t wear hoods. But female students are far more policed than male students, and a lot of times the reasoning is, well, we don't want to distract the male students. 

KAYLA: It makes me so mad. 

SARAH And it’s like, the male students can get over it. I'm sorry that my shoulder is giving you a boner.

KAYLA: It was funny because guys in my school, and guys our age at the time we were in high school, I’d see tweets about it. And guys would be like, what? This is so ridiculous. No one is getting distracted by a girl’s shoulder. And also, it should be on the men to police themselves.

SARAH It shouldn't be. If a guy can't control himself when he sees a girl's shoulder, that's his problem. And she – The blame for his reaction should not be placed on her. She shouldn't be pulled out of school because of it. She shouldn't be publicly humiliated by people in positions of power. Ugh.

KAYLA: That's the thing too is they would always pull girls out of classes in my school or send them home. And that means they're not in class and they're not learning. So, you're showing what your priorities are, your priorities are sexualizing girls and policing girls over girls getting an education. And that's just ridiculous.

SARAH You shouldn't be prioritizing your male students’ sexuality over your female students’ right to education.

KAYLA: Yeah. It's also just very heteronormative.

SARAH Oh, so heteronormative.

KAYLA: To say all the guys in the school are going to get distracted by the girls being dressed in a certain way, when that is assuming a lot of things.

SARAH And I've heard a lot of arguments, a lot of people in the United States are against school uniforms, just because we haven't grown up with them. I have heard arguments from people who are from the UK, from Australia who like the idea of school uniforms in part, because it puts everyone on the same plane. So if there are socioeconomic differences, you don't necessarily see them to the same extent.

Which I understand, but I've also seen articles about schools in the UK where girls must wear skirts. They can't wear pants, they're not allowed to wear pants. And it's like, why? How is this benefiting anyone?

KAYLA: Yeah. I'm not inherently against school uniforms, because I see a lot of the good points in them. I think where they go wrong is when they're so strict as to say, girls have to wear skirts or people have to wear this very specific thing. But I do see the merit in school uniforms, but my bigger beef is with the dress codes that schools without uniforms do have.

SARAH One of our family friends growing up, they went to a Lutheran school, so they didn't have a uniform, but they had a much stricter dress code. They had to wear shirts with collars and they couldn't wear jeans, you could wear whatever color shirt you wanted, but it was a pretty strict dress code. And then on some Fridays they’d have like, you can wear jeans today and it would be the best day of their lives. Which, I don't know.

I understand [in] schools the idea of modesty, however I don't think schools should be enforcing that idea on kids. Because when you're enforcing this idea of you must be modest, you're giving kids an avenue into viewing them as these over-sexualized people.

Like, for me as a person who's not very sexual, when I wear something I'm not thinking about how other people are going to think about it. I'm going to wear it because I like how I look in it. So, when I was in high school and I would wear shorts that were technically against the dress code. I wasn't doing it in an attempt to sexualize myself. I was doing it because I liked them. And so by assuming, that is automatically sexualizing someone. I think that is problematic.

KAYLA: It's also making a lot of assumptions, and I think a big reason that a lot of students break the dress code is because there is a dress code. If you look around at what college students wear, no one's wearing anything overly revealing to class in college. No one's wearing, like – I hardly even see people in tube tops because it's just like, no one has time for that. But if you were to just erase the dress code, would high schoolers really go that crazy? And maybe they would go crazy for a week because they'd be like, whoa, we can wear whatever, but over time it's like, what are they really going to be wearing?

SARAH Right. And I get that high schoolers are like, rebellious teenagers and I understand that they may take it really far, but I think it wouldn't be long-term thing. And also, you have to think about some kids’ parents might not let them wear that anyway. So, it's like, I'm not going to tell you how to parent your kid, but some kids might not even own things that would be “revealing”. 

KAYLA: What is funny in my high school experience – So my dad was the president of my school board for a long time, and he's still on the school board now. But so, I would go to school or go out in outfits that were either not very modest, or just a little short or a little revealing or whatever. And my dad literally had no problem. My dad would always be like; you look so great. That outfit looks really good on you. He applauded that I was dressing up and looking nice. And it was just funny because he worked for the school system and gave zero shit. My parents never really policed what I wore.

SARAH My parents sometimes did, and I think it was more so, you need to follow the rules than necessarily a judgment call on how – 

KAYLA: I mean, that's the thing too is I was very rarely breaking the rules anyway.

SARAH But I think that even if they were to get rid of dress codes, and even if kids were to wear stuff that was more revealing, it just comes back to the whole thing of like, well, why are we sexualizing a 14-year-old? If there's a 14-year-old that's going to wear a tube top, okay.

KAYLA: It's interesting to me, on a broader base, at what age we start sexualizing kids? Because you see baby girls walking around without shirts on, just in diapers, looking all tubby and cute.

SARAH Or you'll see these little girls wearing this little tube top romper things and looking cute.

KAYLA: And they're like babies and they’re five. I remember my parents’ god-kid when she was younger, and I'm assuming she still is, she was wearing little leggings and stuff, even when she was still in pull-ups. So, it didn't look good.

SARAH Baby wear leggings all the time.

KAYLA: Even before leggings were a thing for older people, babies always wore leggings. And so it's like, at what age are we saying – Because in my middle school, leggings were kind of a thing that people, I don't know if they were banned, but I think they might've been.

SARAH When I was in middle school, that was when yoga pants were a thing. So not leggings, but yoga pants, but it's the same idea. And at my school they were allowed, I know other people I knew who went to school in other school districts, they were allowed only if your butt was covered by something else.

KAYLA: I think that’s how ours was, actually.

SARAH And some places they weren’t allowed at all. But also, it's a, butt.

KAYLA: It's interesting that we – Like, at what age is this not okay? And I also remember, we have some friends that are teachers in my school district and one of them taught at the middle school for a while. And he was saying about the whole yoga pants thing, he was like, what really makes me uncomfortable is when you can see – So this is your students and they are children, is when you can see their thongs through. Or you see, what is it called? Like a whale tail when someone’s thong is above – He was like, that just makes me uncomfortable.

And I was like, that's fair because you know, that's your student and that's a child, and that's kind of uncomfortable to see. But as long as you don't act, not like act on, because who – You know what I mean?

SARAH Right. I don't want to see anyone's whale tail, but I support their right to one. (laughs)

KAYLA: But it’s just how it is. Obviously, I think in all aspects of life, no matter how old you are, sometimes what people wear is going to make you a bit uncomfortable. Especially if you're a more modest person or not a very sexual person. If someone is dressed very sexually, sometimes that's going to make them uncomfortable, fine. But like, does that give you the right to tell other people what to wear? I can't speak for private colleges, but once you get to college and university, there's no dress code. So what, magically at the age of 17 or 18, you're suddenly not distracted by shoulders and you're suddenly old enough to make clothing decisions? That’s also,  the magic age of 18 makes you an adult too, there's a lot of controversy over that, and the justice system and whatever. But so, it's like, what about the age makes it like now okay for me to wear whatever.

SARAH Right. Because if you think about college freshmen, they're still in a very high school mindset when they first start college.

KAYLA: Oh my God, yeah.

SARAH And so, you definitely change a lot in college, and your viewpoint of the world changes a lot in college, but it's not the second you turn 18, or the second year of your first day of college [that] that change happens. That's not how it works. And I started college as a 17-year-old.

(20:00)

KAYLA: Yeah, you were very young.

SARAH So, does that mean that I wasn't capable of making my own choices, because I wasn't 18? Or does it mean that I was, because I was in college? There's no hard and fast line, and so you can't pretend like there is. Because in college, the things you see people wear to class, yeah sometimes you see people wearing stuff that would break a high-school dress code.

KAYLA: Definitely.

SARAH But it’s fine. Like when it's warm outside, yeah I'll wear a crop top and shorts to class, which would not be allowed in high school, but no one bats an eye at it, because it's just clothing.

KAYLA: And it's also what everyone else is wearing, because it’s hot out and I have places to walk.  

SARAH And also you see that stuff all the time on the street.

KAYLA: It's like guys in high school, or anyone in high school is going to see that kind of clothing anyway. They're going to see people wearing that, whether it's like on a weekend – 

SARAH They’ve got Instagram.

KAYLA: Yeah, they’ve got Instagram, they see movies and TV, they’re probably – they might be looking at other stuff. That's not anything that you're not seeing.

SARAH Right. It's not like your child seeing a girl's shoulder is going to corrupt them.

KAYLA: From what I understand also, for pubescent boys, they get an erection once an hour just because, anyway.

SARAH I don't know if it's once an hour.

KAYLA: I have heard that it could be up to once an hour.

SARAH Really?

KAYLA: Which seems a lot of work. But so, is a shoulder going to do anything for that, because it's already happening anyway.

SARAH That’s fair.

KAYLA: What?

SARAH Yeah. Obviously too, it's that whole double standard of, it's women's responsibility and men can get away with whatever they want, and it's not their fault.

KAYLA: I read some article recently, I think it might've been in one of my classes, about how an incredible burden is put on women in our society to police men for them. Like if a girl and a guy are going out and he wants to have sex, it is the girl's responsibility to tell him no, and to stay pure and to keep herself pure or whatever. It's just especially a thing in the fifties and sixties I think. And so, you're putting all of the burden for everyone in all relationships, if they are a male-female relationship, you're putting all of that burden on the female. She's the one that has to say no, she's the one that has to not provoke him, she's the one that has to do all of this. And so, it's like, why is it all of their responsibility?

SARAH She's walking on glass, there's nothing you can do that’s – 

KAYLA: And also, if you're doing too much, like, I remember when I was in high school. I was wearing yoga pants or whatever. And at the time, I don't think I owned any thongs just because I had old underwear and that's how it was.

SARAH When I was in middle school. I didn't own thongs.

KAYLA: I was in high school, so I was older, but whatever. So, I was wearing yoga pants, I'm sure there were underwear lines, but I was like, who actually gives a shit? And I remember hearing this one kid that I knew and was in the drama department with me, who had been talking about me behind my back and saying like, oh Kayla’s just try to fit in with all the other girls, but she's too pure to wear a thong so you can see underwear lines, but she’s just wearing yoga pants to fit in. And there’s so much – 

SARAH Too pure to own a thong? As if a thong takes away your purity.

KAYLA: So yeah, there's a lot to unpack there. 

SARAH A thong is just a type of underwear. I don't think people understand that it's just a type of underwear.

KAYLA: Yeah. I mean, does it look more scandalous? I guess.

SARAH But only if you just see the thong. If they’re wearing something over it?

KAYLA: To me, thongs are just more convenient for everything. That's a personal preference.

SARAH If you're going to wear something where you would be able to see underwear lines, and you're the kind of person that cares about that sort of thing, thongs are the way to go. They’re not an inherently sexual thing.

KAYLA: But also like, what is the problem with seeing someone's underwear lines? And why does that make me inherently a prude?

SARAH That doesn't even make sense. It’s the idea [that] if you're a prude or whatever, if you're a virgin, you only wear granny panties.

KAYLA: That's the thing I'm saying that girls are walking on glass, because on one hand they have to police boys and they have to not do anything, but if they do that too much, then suddenly they're a prude. It's like, well, what do you want from me?

SARAH This isn't a new concept either.

KAYLA: God no.

SARAH Because if you see those pictures of women in the fifties and sixties, where the police are literally measuring to make sure their bathing suits are long enough? It could only be six inches above the knee, which is a horrible rule because some people are different heights, okay? That means that if you're a tall person – 

KAYLA: You're screwed.

SARAH But they would literally be policed by the police, about whether or not their bathing suit was long enough. And when bikinis were first a thing, that was so scandalous

KAYLA: That was the drama.

SARAH That was crazy. Or the whole burkini thing where it's like, I remember that drama.

KAYLA: Even when women started wearing short skirts and all that in the sixties – Because the sixties was the sexual revolution, and so short skirts went along with the sexual revolution, but it's also like why?

SARAH And I think it's also really interesting that a lot of these people, a lot of the people who really enforce or support strong dress codes are people who tend to be more conservative. And often people who are more conservative are the same people who are looking at countries, for example in the Middle East, where women are required to wear a hijab or a burka or a niqab, and they're saying that is oppressive, to police what women wear and to police modesty. But they're doing the same thing.

KAYLA: Maybe on a smaller scale, but it's the same principle.

SARAH And it's just such a double standard because it's like, okay, if Muslims are doing it, it's wrong, because apparently everything Muslims do is wrong, in their mind. And also, they have a basic misunderstanding of why women choose to wear a burka and a niqab or a hijab, because that's a personal choice. And whether it's for modesty or other religious reasons, or just because they want to, that's their call. 

Hi, quick note from Sarah in the future. When I talk about Muslim women who choose to wear the burka or the niqab or the hijab, what I just said applies to those who choose to do it themselves. It is true, but there are countries where they are required by law to do so. I personally disagree with that, because I think women should have the choice to wear or not wear whatever coverings they choose. Okay, just wanted to clarify that, back to past Sarah and Kayla.

SARAH And then they'll get mad at women in the United States who wear the hijab.

KAYLA: But then I feel people also make fun of people that are dressed very modestly and who don't show a lot of skin or whatever, I feel like people make fun of them and they’re saying oh, they're a goody two-shoes or whatever. But then if you're dressed too scandalously, and show a lot of skin and people are like, well, what is she trying to do?

SARAH There's no right way to do it in the minds of society. Either you're a slut or you're a prude, and the way you dress is somehow indicative of that. And there's really no middle ground, because I don't even – Argh.

KAYLA: So that’s it.

SARAH That’s fun. Also, so in the workplace, every workplace has its own “dress code”, which really just kind of means how fancy you have to dress.

KAYLA: So are you casual or business casual?

SARAH Right.

KAYLA: But I have noticed, so I started doing work in actual workplaces last summer. And I had to go out and buy things.

SARAH I had to do that yesterday.

KAYLA: Well, it's hard in general because when you tell a guy business casual – 

SARAH It’s very clear.

KAYLA: It’s nice pants and it's a collared shirt, it's a button down. But for girls you have to worry – So business casual, it could also be a pants and a blazer. But if it's a dress, how short can the dress be? And I read a lot of articles about how much makeup women should wear when you go to work, and how short your skirt should be.

And I was recently talking to my dad because we had been shopping and he was saying, do you know what dress code they have? And I was like, no, I don't remember. And he was like, well, to be safe, I'd wear pants on the first day. Not a dress just to see how other people are dressed. Because you don't want to wear something too short, and other people are dressed more conservatively. And I was like, well, that's a good point. But also, it's like, why?

SARAH So I have two different internships this summer. One of which my boss was like, its business casual – 

KAYLA: Which means nothing to me

SARAH But “jeans and sneakers are fine”, which, that's not business casual.

KAYLA: I don't know because I was talking to my dad and he said jeans are more common in workplaces now.

SARAH Oh yeah, definitely. 

KAYLA: Maybe that’s a new thing. 

SARAH But I think as a woman, obviously I'm not going to wear jeans with a bunch of holes in them. But because there's a much broader – There's just more options for women in terms of fashion. And because of that, and also because most of these workplaces were originally designed just with men, is that the expectations of what women wear is varied, and it's hard to pin down.

(30:00)

For my other internship, he said just business casual so I was shopping yesterday, trying to get business casual, but then it's like, how business casual? Like how business, how casual? It depends on the place. So I was buying clothes, but I was like, I don't want to buy too much clothing that's too fancy if I'm not going to wear it, because that'd be a waste of money, but I need to have some. And it's difficult.

KAYLA: You know what’s a problem for me? So I feel when you're in a professional setting, you should probably not wear like super tight pants.

SARAH My pants are tight, get over it. 

KAYLA: But for me, like all my pants are tight because I just have a large butt. And so, it's hard for me to find pants, especially since tight pants are in, so that's what everyone sells – 

SARAH Tight pants are in, but this summer, like big flowy legs are in too.

KAYLA: That’s true, I've seen.

SARAH But I have that issue where I have large thighs.

KAYLA: I think I would drown in – My legs are so chickeny that I think I would drown in those kind of pants.

SARAH I have the opposite problem where I have big enough thighs that they just turn into tight pants.

KAYLA: As I often say Sarah, if we were just one person, things would be fine.

SARAH They’d be better. But yeah, and I think it's just a problem with women not knowing what the standard is for a workplace, but also the standard is unclear, and it's going to depend on how – I don't want to say how sexist your boss is, but you know.

Because I had this dress that I tried on yesterday that I was just trying on for myself, I didn't have it in the category of business casual. And my mom was like actually, if you wore a blazer with that, it'd probably be fine. And I was like, but this is a tight dress.

KAYLA: Oh I have several, which was fine because last summer I was working for a door-to-door sales company. They literally encouraged girls to wear high heels and tighter stuff because that's what sold. Which I'm not inherently mad at that, you use what you have. But so, I have dresses that like that, they were okay in that work environment, but now going into an office setting, I don't know.

SARAH Exactly. And it's like I also know, I mean, my internships are in Hollywood, and in Hollywood it's a lot chiller. Because you have the suits, but I'm not going to be one of the suits. So, I've heard people talking about if you're going to pitch something, what should you wear? And most people say, wear what you wear on the daily, because you don't want to misrepresent yourself. 

But then also it's like, well, I'm an intern, that's a different scenario. What am I supposed to do? So, I watched an episode, a pilot episode of Batman for one of my classes. And one of the things, obviously this is the fifties, but one of the things they said was like, you have to wear heels. The boss likes it if you wear like shorter dresses, whatever. And there's this expectation that even in the workplace, granted this is the fifties, but I think this mindset carries on today that you are dressing for your male bosses, somehow.

KAYLA: Have you ever seen the musical, How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying?

SARAH I haven’t.

KAYLA: So, I saw it a couple of years ago and so it's set in the fifties too, I think. But there's a whole storyline about how the secretaries are just kind of traded throughout the business, and how people are always falling in love with their secretaries, and all of this stuff. It's a major plot point that these secretaries are literally just there to look at. And the secretaries also are all trying to marry all the rich men. Because they're like, I need to lock one down and get pregnant. And it's just like, oh my God. And obviously it's a joke, but it's like, yikes.

SARAH Yeah.

KAYLA: If we were a nudist colony, this would be a lot easier.

SARAH I was about to say I wouldn't like that. But if we lived in nudist colony our whole life – 

KAYLA: Then we wouldn’t know.

SARAH Yeah, that's true. Also jumping way back to the bathing suit thing that we very briefly mentioned. I love it when people are like, well, what's the difference between wearing a bikini and wearing a bra and underwear, and like – 

KAYLA: Nothing.

SARAH Well, but on a very basic level, consent. Consent is the difference. You're not a slut for wearing a bikini.

KAYLA: If people see you in your underwear, then it's like, whoa.

SARAH Yeah, so if you're seeing someone in their underwear, consensually, it's a very different scenario than when they're in a bikini. Often if you are seeing someone in their underwear, there's a pretty decent chance it might be a sexual scenario.

KAYLA: Well, for me, after years of dance and swim, I don't care who sees my body any more. So, for me, it's like, if you're seeing me in my underwear, get in line, so is everyone else.

SARAH But for some, it depends on the scenario, but if you're wearing a bathing suit, that is in no way inherently sexual.

KAYLA: Yeah because a bathing suit is something that is like a public clothing. That's something you wear in public, but underwear is just by its name, it's something that you don't see. It's not really meant to be seen. I mean, some bras now are meant to be seen and stuff, but also that's the thing is when you're wearing a see-through top with a bralette, it's meant to be seen, it is also inherently different than seeing someone in a bra that is not meant to be seen.

SARAH Right. To conclude, I think that enforcing what other people wear is stupid, because who gave you the right? Why do you have that right?

KAYLA: Well, Sarah, that's the hard thing though, is some people do have the right. Because you go back to what we talked about at the beginning with schools, schools do have the right.

SARAH Well, but my question is, I mean, I understand that legally they have the right, I'm talking about like – 

KAYLA: Spiritually.

SARAH On a moral level. Why do you have the right to dictate what I wear, more than I have that right?

KAYLA: Yeah.

SARAH That's stupid. And it often, it over-sexualized girls a lot. Even though they're saying like, you should be more modest, in turn that's sexualizing girls because of the reasoning.

KAYLA: Well, it's also because I think for high schoolers, a lot of people are like, oh high schoolers are too young to make their own decisions. I think that something – 

SARAH Also, hormones

KAYLA: Also hormones. But also historically some people say women can't make their own decisions. So, if you look at the people that are being policed for their clothes, its people that “can't think for themselves”. And so someone has to do it for you.

SARAH Exactly. And I just think that's stupid, it's very heteronormative, it's under the assumption that all women are here to be sexual items.

KAYLA: It’s just distracting.

SARAH And that's not true.

KAYLA: You know what – I know we said to conclude, but I thought of another thing. So, I think especially dress codes draw attention to girls that they are girls, and they're being sexualized and psychologically, there's the thing called stereotype threat. If you're in a situation where you know that you are stereotyped to be bad at something – So girls stereotypically are bad at math. If you remind a girl before a math test that she's a girl, you have her bubble in her gender and so she's reminded that she's a girl, she will do worse on that test.

So, if you're in school and you are constantly being reminded that you are a female, that these are the stereotypes, these are expectations, you are constantly being reminded. Then that's just causing people to perpetuate stereotypes because they are so afraid of failing that they fail anyway, because they're so distracted. It's just a vicious cycle.

SARAH Also, girls out there, don't shame other girls for what they wear.

KAYLA: Don’t do it.

SARAH Even if you're like, I wouldn't wear that, good for you.

KAYLA: Who cares? No one asked you to wear that. 

SARAH You don't have to wear it. There are plenty of things I see people wearing where it's like, I would never wear that. I don't tend to wear things that have a lot of boobage because I just don't. That doesn't mean that there's an issue if other people do it. That's just the way it is.

KAYLA: Would Sarah wear my new pantsuit? Maybe, because it's very cute, but it doesn't matter. Because I’m going to wear it anyway.

SARAH Okay. With that, what's our poll?

KAYLA: Which high school dress code is the stupidest? The three finger rule. Fingertip length shorts. Midriff. Hats.

SARAH Hats, I think that’s the stupidest. Why?

KAYLA: No, there is a reason, it's because it covers people's face, and then the security cameras can't pick up their faces when they do stupid shit.

SARAH My school didn't have fucking security cameras.

KAYLA: I'm sure it did. You just didn't see them.

SARAH Possible.

KAYLA: I’m sure they did.

SARAH I mean, we had a police officer.

KAYLA: We used to, and then he retired and we never got anyone else. But I'm almost positive that your school must've had cameras, for how big it was. It just did it. At least on the outside.

SARAH I mean, I don't know.

KAYLA: I think you probably did.

SARAH I just don't know. I think that one's stupid just because like, I can't even think, other than that, what is the reasoning? The other ones I recognize the reasoning, and I think it's stupid.

Anyway, that’s the poll, you can find that poll on our Twitter @soundsfakepod. You can also find us on Tumblr at soundsfakepod.tumblr.com or you can email us, soundsfakepod@gmail.com. Where can they listen?

KAYLA: Literally anywhere. iTunes, SoundCloud, Stitcher Radio, anywhere you find your podcasts and like listening to them. 

SARAH We also have a Patreon, you can find us at patreon.com/soundsfakepod. If you want to give us money, you can have your name read on this podcast, how exciting. For our $5 patrons we have Jennifer Smart, you can find her on YouTube by looking up Lehen Productions. There’s also Asritha Vinnakota, you can find her on Instagram @asritha_v.

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We also have Austin Le, he’d like to promote the Twitch channel twitch.tv/k4iley. Kailey with a 4 but also there are so many Kailey spellings, which one? That one. There’s also Drew Finney, you can find him on Twitter @midwestdrew – No, that’s a lie. I lied to you. You can find him on Twitter @midwest_drew. Our $10 patron is Emma Fink, you can find her on YouTube by looking up Emma T Fink.

Thanks for listening, tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.

KAYLA: And until then, take good care of your cows.