Ep 54: Non-Inclusive Groups
SARAH: Hey what’s up hello. Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl (I’m Sarah. That’s me.)
KAYLA: And a demi straight girl (that’s me, Kayla.)
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else that we just don’t understand.
KAYLA: On today’s episode: Non-inclusive groups.
BOTH: — Sounds fake, but okay.
*Intro music*
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod.
KAYLA: (groans)
SARAH: Wow, alright. So, this week's episode came about for a weird reason. So, there was a thing at our university, where this girl who has graduated and is no longer a student here, made this very long website post thing about how when she was in a sorority, and she was recruitment chair for a sorority, about all of the shit that goes into recruiting that shouldn't, I guess. And that's completely unrelated to aceness, but –
KAYLA: We're going to bring it around to it.
SARAH: But then I was telling Kayla about it, and we realized there was more connection than I originally thought, when it comes to groups that aren't necessarily inclusive. Which is really vague. That's a vague statement.
KAYLA: It's groups that, they aren't not inclusive. There's nothing in their policy.
SARAH: They aren't anti-inclusivity.
KAYLA: It's just when you look at the kind of people that gravitate there, and the kind of people that meet their weird standards, it is not.
SARAH: Right.
KAYLA: It's not.
SARAH: And so, that started with thinking about Greek life, but it definitely goes beyond that. So we're going to talk about a lot of different things here, but –
KAYLA: Sure. I'm just along for the ride here.
SARAH: Oh, I made almost a page’s worth of bullet pointed notes.
KAYLA: Great, I'll be here having cramps, so –
SARAH: Cool.
KAYLA: So, that's good.
SARAH: Yeah, but basically, it started with me reading this article about Greek life and about sororities. For those of you who aren't American or who don't have context, or maybe you're from Greece, and you're like, what are you talking about, Greek life? Hahaha, jokes.
KAYLA: Hahaha.
SARAH: Yeah, so basically, there's been a lot of drama about Greek life at our university recently, because several frats have unaffiliated with the university for reasons.
KAYLA: They're back now.
SARAH: They're back now?
KAYLA: Oh, yeah. So basically, a bunch of frats unaffiliated with our school, to make sure that there weren't bigger consequences if the school kicked them out, and they were forced to unaffiliate, but then once the sororities said, okay, then we're not allowed to have events with you, all the frats except for two came back.
SARAH: Oh, yeah, you're right. I've read about that.
KAYLA: So –
SARAH: So, that's fun. And we'll get into that.
KAYLA: Really?
SARAH: Well about the frat-sorority relationships and heteronormativity and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, so, at many American universities, you have what's called Greek life, which is the Panhellenic Society of the whatever –
KAYLA: That's a very large word.
SARAH: Yeah. It's fraternities and sororities. And you see this shit in the movies a lot. What you see is an exaggeration
KAYLA: Uh –
SARAH: but it's an exaggeration that is based in some truth.
KAYLA: Yeah. I feel like, honestly, a lot of it probably isn't that exaggerated.
SARAH: Yeah. It's probably maybe less exaggerated than I wish it were.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: So basically, how it works is – And I know a little bit more about sororities, but they're very similar in [that] basically you have to rush these frats or these sororities. And what that means is, when you're a freshman or maybe a sophomore, if you decide you want to join one, there's this whole huge process where all of the sororities, they work together to basically – It's this several week-long process, where they meet all the people rushing and they get to know them, and they see where they fit in, and then at the end of the rush process, you want to get bids from these sororities.
KAYLA: So that's like the sorority telling you, we want you to join, and then –
SARAH: Right. A bid is like an acceptance letter, and then if you get bids from more than one, you can choose which one you want to join. You might get a bid from only one and you don't want to join it, and you say, you know what, no, I don't want to do Greek life at all. That's an option too. But basically, you want to get bids, so that you can – You can't join a sorority or a frat without a bid.
KAYLA: And usually there's a hierarchy of the “better” sororities and frats, and those are harder to get into.
SARAH: Right. So, it's like applying to college, where it's like, you have your first choice and then you might have your second choice. And if you don't get a bid to your first choice, you might get a bid to your second choice.
KAYLA: Whereas applying to college, there's this very set criteria of things like grades and clubs. What Sarah read in this post, going back to that is, criteria for getting in was looks, and what your Facebook looks like.
SARAH: It's because, technically, according to the university and according to the national chapters – Because in Greek life, basically all sororities and fraternities at each university, they're an arm of a greater umbrella sorority. So there's the national chapter, and then you are the University of Michigan chapter of that sorority. So you have people above you within your sorority. And so there are rules, technically, against choosing people based off of looks, choosing people based off of whatever. But internally, that shit does happen.
And so, I'm not going to go into detail about this whole thing. If you want to read about it, you can look it up, because that's not what this is about. But basically, the thing that really stood out to me is, when the sisters were interviewing the girls who were rushing, there was a whole ranking system about deciding who's getting bids and stuff, which they're not supposed to do. But to be fair, they do get, the bigger [sororities] – they can get up to like 1200 people who are rushing in. That's overwhelming and so I understand wanting to categorize them somehow. Don't agree with the way they do it.
But basically, they were saying that when the sisters who are the current members of the sororities, when they talk to these people who are rushing, and if they're like, oh, I really want this person, they're asked to basically come up with someone in the sorority who that person reminds them of. And basically, it's encouraging them to find people exactly like the people who are already in the sorority, to join the sorority. And it's a systemic thing, it's a secret systemic thing, because they're not supposed to be doing that.
The point is, they're trying to find people like the people they already have. And on one hand, I get it, because you want people who will fit into your group. On the other hand, that does not leave open any space to diversify your group.
KAYLA: Especially when you look at fraternities and sororities, at least here, they're all white –
SARAH: Very white
KAYLA: Very rich, all –
SARAH: Because being in a frat or being in a sorority is expensive.
KAYLA: I mean, they live in mansions, there'll be 100 or 200 people in one mansion, which is bananas. And they have their private chefs and they have their whatever.
SARAH: And they have their house mom, and they have their whatever and their –
KAYLA: Their rules, and it's all a huge, big thing. And then you will have Black frats, and you'll Indian frats.
SARAH: I know one person in an Indian sorority, yeah.
KAYLA: Right. And you have professional frats too.
SARAH: That’s a whole other shenanigans.
KAYLA: There's the chem frat and the engineering frat –
SARAH: And those are often co ed.
KAYLA: Those are often co ed, and in my opinion, often just better.
SARAH: My mom, when she was in college was in a volunteering, service frat.
KAYLA: Oh, I didn't know that.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Julie?
SARAH: Of course, it's Julie. Of course, Julie would be in a service frat.
KAYLA: That's true. Yeah. So in my opinion and what I've seen, those are better run.
SARAH: And I want to say, this is not true of all Greek life, this is not true of all. Even when we're talking about social frats and sororities, Panhellenic, that sort of deal, they don't all do this.
KAYLA: No, I know some people that are in a sorority that is purposely a very small sorority, and they purposely don't do things like that. And I know people that are in that and they love it.
SARAH: Right. But it's like, the problem with the way they do things, and a lot of it is based off of looks, and a lot of it is based off of, okay, what's their internet presence? We need to, give them like a pre-score to see how we think they're going to fit in. And then if we meet them and we find out that they're more attractive in person than their Facebook implies, then that can change their score. It's just such a thing.
And it's like that is really – it's keeping you from diversifying your group. In my mind, to some extent it is good that there's Black sororities and Indians sororities or whatever. And that's cool, but that also creates segregation within the world of Greek life. And it inhibits actual diversity.
(10:00)
KAYLA: And it's like why do we need to – The reason we need to have Black and Indian frats and sororities is because there's no other diversity.
SARAH: It’s because historically, they don’t get in to the others.
KAYLA: And like you said, there's nothing wrong with there being Black and Indian frats, but if you look at why those people probably felt the need to establish them –
SARAH: Yeah. And some sororities and some frats are more diverse than others. I do know people who are not white and who are in sororities, and there are other people in those sororities who aren't white. But then you see sororities who are very, very, very white.
KAYLA: And the majority of sororities I see are. Because it's the only thing about when you're rating people on looks, is then you're going with the white standard of beauty. And so obviously, people of other races aren't getting in, because you're comparing them to something that they have nothing to do with.
SARAH: And I mean, it also has to do with the kind of people who would like to join sororities. And because Greek life is seen as this historically white thing, of course, white people are going to be more inclined to join, but if people of color felt more welcome, they would join. And I think that's part of the problem is, they don't feel welcome.
KAYLA: And I wouldn't.
SARAH: And that doesn't just extend to people of different races, that also, I think, extends a lot to the queer community. Because a big thing – I mean, frats and sororities, they're very straight. And it's a big thing where sororities and frats will have date parties with each other, or even just on their own, they'll have date parties where it's like, you have to bring a date. That's the whole thing.
KAYLA: You bring a date. Sometimes you are handcuffed to your date. That was a debacle.
SARAH: What a thing that was, I don't even want to go into that. But that encourages heteronormativity. Even if you have these groups who are like, oh we're inclusive, whatever, if you're not straight that's cool. But if you show up with a girl to a date party –
KAYLA: Right. Systemically, it's just baked in. Because they have mixers with frats and sororities. They are required to have a certain amount of mixers a year. And that was part of the problem with the frats in our school coming back. And it's like they're not just mixing to have fun, we all know what they're having mixers for. Yeah. And I mean, frats usually are very toxic masculinity and bros and dudes –
SARAH: Don't even get me started on hazing. I have so many thoughts on hazing.
KAYLA: That's not a place that I would feel welcome in, as a gay man.
SARAH: Not at all, not at all. And it's like also – It's such a stupid thing to say, but if you are, say you're a gay woman and you bring a female date to a date party, then you're going to have sisters being like, well, why can't I just bring a girl as my date as a friend, so that I don't have to deal with the guys? And then that would cause drama.
KAYLA: You know what else would cause drama? In sororities there's rules about, no boys on the second floor, no boys above whatever floor. Oh, whatever, oops, I'm a lesbian. Oh, she's just my friend. That is such a straight rule of no boys on the second floor. What if this is my friend because I'm gay as hell, or I'm ace as hell?
SARAH: It's just so white and heteronormative. Okay, what about gender non-binary people? I cannot imagine any situation in which I were not cisgender, and felt comfortable joining the Greek life system.
KAYLA: No, because it's so incredibly gendered.
SARAH: It's very, very gendered.
KAYLA: It's a complete binary. You're in a frat or you're in a sorority.
SARAH: Even just like in terms of, you see a lot of times for events, like for sororities, they'll all be wearing matching colors or matching outfits.
KAYLA: Oh, they all are. It's all the white.
SARAH: A lot of it's white dresses, but sometimes they’ll give them themes and stuff. And they're always dresses.
KAYLA: Oh, yeah.
SARAH: It's like, what if you don't feel comfortable in a dress?
KAYLA: We were going to a friend's house the other day, and it was during rush. I think it was leading up to the bid day. And we saw a huge group of girls that was definitely a sorority, in a parking lot practicing this dance that we're assuming they were going to do as a group at one of their events. It was the most –
SARAH: I think it was people rushing, wasn't it?
KAYLA: I don't know. I honestly could not tell you.
SARAH: Because it was before bid day.
KAYLA: Okay, so maybe it was a group of girls rushing and they were making them do this choreography. But it was the most provocative thing. And that's fine but it's also – I mean, that just goes –
SARAH: Yeah. I would feel really uncomfortable in that situation. I feel very uncomfortable with the prospect of Greek life. And I know people who are in Greek life, and some of them are extremely nice people who I couldn't even imagine them being in a sorority. And again, it goes back to the fact they're not all the same. Not all sororities are crazy.
KAYLA: Right. But I also know people that are in sororities that hate the stereotypical sorority girl. They're like, you're making us all look dumb. I don't even like telling people I'm in a sorority, I know people like that too. But the fact that they have to feel bad about being in a sorority, I feel like it should tell you something.
SARAH: Yeah. I know for a lot of people joining Greek life is a really good way to meet people and to make friends and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but you have to be a certain type of person to be able to join. And it's not because of explicit rules, but because of implicit stereotypes and people are being implicitly precluded from the system. And again, it's not that sororities and frats are being intentionally exclusive, they're not saying that you're not welcome, because they're –
KAYLA: They let anyone rush.
SARAH: Yeah, it doesn't matter who you are, you can rush. But there's a difference between not excluding people, and including people.
KAYLA: The odds are already stacked against you if you're not like everyone else. Me and Sarah were even talking, we're both white. I'm straightish, or whatever, I don't know. I'd pass as straight, Sarah could pass as straight –
SARAH: I mean, I could pass as straight.
KAYLA: But we would not get into a good sorority, a “good” sorority. No one wants us. Even us, we are not those kind of people.
SARAH: It's like I consider myself an average-looking person.
KAYLA: I feel like we both look all right.
SARAH: I feel like we'd get into a mid-tier sorority.
KAYLA: I think it's our personality that's the problem.
SARAH: But they wouldn't know at first.
KAYLA: I don't even know that we could put on that kind of act, though.
SARAH: I'm pretty introverted, though.
KAYLA: We could look average, and we could look normal. What we wouldn't look great to them, we would look normal because we'd be repressing.
SARAH: We’d be middle of the road.
KAYLA: No, we would not get into a sorority.
SARAH: It's also just because I was not raised in a way – No one in my family was in a social sorority. That's just not the type of people I come from. But to some people, it's a family thing. It's a big deal to get into the same house as your mom was in. You know Pitch Perfect? For those of you who have seen Pitch Perfect, you know how with the Barden Bellas, they're not a sorority, but you know how in the second one, it was like a big deal because she was like, I was a Barden Bella, and I want you to be a Barden Bella because you're my daughter. It's like that.
KAYLA: Like on parents' weekend, there's parents' weekend at school. Parents will come and hang out with you and go to the game with you. And there'll just be dads at the frats –
SARAH: Shotgunning beers.
KAYLA: On homecoming a lot too. Homecoming is when alumni come back. There'll be 40-year-old men with their young children, going back to their old frats.
SARAH: We missed that this past weekend. Homecoming was this weekend, but we weren't there.
KAYLA: It's my favorite activity. You'll be walking down to the stadium, you'll pass all the frats, and it's just these old, old men with their young children.
SARAH: Reliving their glory days.
KAYLA: And it's like, that is such a bad environment for kids to be in, because it is messy.
SARAH: I mean, I guess peaking in college is better than peaking in high school but –
KAYLA: But is it? No.
SARAH: Do you remember college?
KAYLA: Yikes.
SARAH: Yeah. But that's one of the things that girl mentioned when she was writing about this, was that there was a girl who was rushing her sorority, and that girl had a sister who had previously been in a leadership role in the sorority, who had just recently graduated.
KAYLA: An actual sister.
SARAH: Her actual sibling.
KAYLA: Her blood sister.
SARAH: Yes. And she was rushing, and a lot of people were vouching for her. And that can happen, from what I understand, you vouch for the people you want. Everyone has a rush crush of this person who they really want to be in their sorority.
KAYLA: I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
SARAH: Yeah. It's just like, I think you're cool, let's be friends. And so she had several people vouching for her, going to the people at the top in the sorority and saying, I think she would really fit in really well at our sorority. I believe I'm retelling this story correctly. One of the people from the national chapter-
KAYLA: A full adult.
SARAH: Yeah, I don't know exactly how old this person was.
KAYLA: They're adults. It's not college kids running the national chapters, they're full-on adults.
SARAH: So she was there for part of the rushing process, and I guess there's this part of the process where they have people come in, and they have people stand there and basically look at each person, and put them in a box, based off of just watching them walk in. And this girl was put into the wrong box. And because of that, she did not get a bid. She didn't get a bid, because some rando person from the national chapter didn't think she was, I don't know, cute enough? I don't know.
KAYLA: Even though she was obviously qualified to be in it, because people already knew her and people liked her.
(20:00)
SARAH: Yeah. And there was another story that this girl told about, there was one girl who – She was really good friends with a bunch of the sisters. She hadn't rushed, but she became really good friends with the sisters, she was at the house all the time. She was basically a sister without being one, and so she rushed because she decided she wants to join the sorority. Maybe I'm mixing my stories up. But either way, the person – No, I think I am mixing my stories up. But I think this was the one where the person from the national chapter was like, no. And they basically had to fight the national chapter to let her in, because they were like, it would cause more drama to not let her in.
KAYLA: Well, yeah, because at that point, then you have young sisters who don't really know that the system is fucked up yet, and then they're like, well, this doesn't make sense.
SARAH: Yeah, I think I'm mixing up the stories. But I know there was one where there was a sibling who either almost didn't get in or didn't get in, and then another girl was like, this girl was basically already a sister, and they had to fight to get her in. I don't remember where I was going with this. But basically, it's just so – I mean, of course, it's going to be subjective, because you're deciding who's going to be in your friend group by how nice they seem, I don't know. I don't know how to explain this.
Again, it's not that they're being actively non-inclusive, but you can see, if you peel back the curtain and you look at how they're deciding who ends up in this group, it's like, what is going on here? Because the girl who – She said she was a recruitment chair, her junior year, and there was some stuff that – Basically some of this the sophomores, some of the second year students figured out some of the bullshit that was going on, and they called the sorority out on it. They were like, how come some of the sisters during rush are only talking to a bunch of people who seem to be duds, who aren't going to get a bid, and some of the sisters are talking to all of the people who – They seem great. And it's like, you're clearly separating these people who are rushing, into groups.
KAYLA: Already before even giving them a bid.
SARAH: Before you even give them a bid. And they called them out. And I guess that year, 12 sisters quit.
KAYLA: That must be painful, you get in your first year, and then the second year, you realize what got you in was not what you thought got you in. That must be painful.
SARAH: Exactly. And so it's just like these groups, there's a difference between not being exclusive, and being inclusive. Because if you're inclusive, you are actively trying to be inclusive, you're actively trying to foster diversity.
KAYLA: We should make a queer frat.
SARAH: Oh.
KAYLA: Yup.
SARAH: Okay. But you're actively trying to foster diversity, and that's just not what these groups are doing.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: It's about creating community where people who are not stereotypical sorority girls would feel comfortable and safe showing up to try and join, and wanting to join, and they're just not creating that community, because they're just creating the exact same community that existed 20 years ago. The world is changing. And with Quidditch, our team this year is one of the most diverse teams we've ever had.
KAYLA: Which is sad.
SARAH: Which is sad.
KAYLA: Because we have like five non-white people and that makes it our most diverse ever.
SARAH: Right. I know. But that's the thing with Quidditch too, is we are a systemically inclusive group.
KAYLA: (doubtful) Hmm.
SARAH: Not in a perfect way.
KAYLA: Genderwise.
SARAH: I mean if you look at our own org's constitution, if you look at US Quidditch, in terms of gender, in terms of being inclusive of non-binary folks, it is systemically inclusive.
KAYLA: That's true, that's true.
SARAH: But we're still a bunch of straight white people. And part of the problem is pipeline, because if you look at – So, gender non-binary folks, they have been systemically or implicitly precluded from athletics in the past, usually, because athletics tends to be girls' sports, boys' sports. And so if you are not –
KAYLA: If you've never done sports, what makes you want to do sports all of a sudden, now?
SARAH: Right. And so, if you're not cisgendered, you may not have done sports in the past, because there was nowhere for you to go, you didn't feel comfortable going anywhere. And so those people might be included and welcome in our group, but even if they know that they don't necessarily have an athletic background.
KAYLA: Or there's no interest.
SARAH: Yeah, there's no interest. If there is interest, they might be intimidated by the process, because it's a full contact sport. Or if they don't have experience in athletics, they just might not have the skill to make the team. And it's like, what can we do about that pipeline issue? I don't know. Encourage Quidditch for young children?
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: I don't know.
KAYLA: Well, that's the thing. I mean, I think that pipeline issue was the thing with fraternities and sororities, too was – I mean, we all inherently know that sororities and fraternities, they're very gendered. So it's not like non-binary people or queer people are going to be interested in it. So then it's just a whole circular thing because if no one's rushing, and even if you are rushing, you're not getting in, and then it's just like it's never –
SARAH: And it's also, just in terms of Greek life, it's a polarizing thing because it's like most people I know, they either have a very positive or very negative view of Greek life, and there's not much room for movement in between. And so, I guess, the people who have a positive view of Greek life generally come from a background of, they know and are related to people who did Greek life, or they are friends with people. So, that's a problem. And what do you do about that? I don't know, I don't know.
Another thing, though too is, so University of Michigan is the original affirmative action school. We were that case. And so, although, there's definitely a ways to go, our school has definitely done things to encourage racial diversity. We still wish there were more Black people at this school.
KAYLA: It's such a white school.
SARAH: But to encourage racial diversity, this school is slowly making steps to include diversity in terms of socioeconomic class. Well, in terms of the scholarships they're now offering, it's not great.
KAYLA: It's not great.
SARAH: It's not great. Because what is it? 10% of the students here are in the top 1%? I heard that somewhere.
KAYLA: A lot of rich people go here.
SARAH: Yeah. And they're taking steps forward, not as far as it should be, but that's true of everything right now. But in terms of sexual orientation, diversity there is great, but how do you get that? You can't force people to disclose their sexuality in an application.
KAYLA: Well, that's the thing is, sexuality is, in a lot of ways, a very invisible identity. I mean, unless you're stereotypically gay looking.
SARAH: But they don't see you on your application.
KAYLA: But they don't see you.
SARAH: And maybe you write about it in your essay, but that's the only way for them to know.
KAYLA: Right. I mean, sexuality is just very hard to see. And so yeah, there's no way to have diverse sexualities. And also, people just might not want to talk about it.
SARAH: People might not want to talk about it, people might not want to disclose it, people might not know yet, because unlike your race, it's not you turn 18 and you're like, oh my god, I think I'm white. It's not like your race. Unless you don't know who your parents are, unless that's your situation.
KAYLA: I feel like you still might do your race at least a little bit.
SARAH: Yeah, it's not something you're going to uncover about yourself, unless you're like, I did 23andMe, turns out, I'm half Black. I don't know, I feel like you'd know that. But sexuality is different. And in some ways, so is gender identity. And so, you can't force people to disclose that. In terms of gender identity, I don't know – I know the university is pretty decent about being inclusive of gender identity –
KAYLA: I know housing does a good job over there.
SARAH: Yeah, housing does a good job, but in terms of application, I don't remember.
KAYLA: I feel like it was probably one of those things like gender: male, female, would not like to specify, or something. I have to assume that's what the application was.
SARAH: So, you want there to be diversity there, but it's harder to achieve.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And that's also the thing is, okay, Ann Arbor, which is where our University is, it's a very liberal place. It's probably the most liberal of all the bubbles in Michigan.
KAYLA: Oh, yeah. Of the entire Midwest, maybe.
SARAH: Possibly, I don't know.
KAYLA: I would even go as far to say.
SARAH: Yeah. I mean, I don't know what's going on in Chicago, but –
KAYLA: I feel like Ann Arbor might even beat out Chicago.
SARAH: But it's also a big public university. It's a big public university that is huge on sports, which is a very heteronormative thing, historically, and Greek life is a big thing at this school. And so if you are queer, you will see that and you will be like, well, am I welcome here? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not.
KAYLA: Probably not.
(30:00)
SARAH: Yeah. Although, you know what is a fun thing, the dance team at Michigan, last year, for the first time got a male dancer on the dance team. He used to just be on the dance team, but he wouldn't necessarily be dancing on the field.
KAYLA: That's because he was a freshman.
SARAH: He was a freshman, but now he does. And it's great. And he does the exact same choreo.
KAYLA: I wish his outfit was better though. His outfit is still kind of ass. It's also weird though, because our dance team – We were just talking about them earlier actually. They do a lot of hairography.
SARAH: Yes, they use their hair a lot.
KAYLA: They do a lot hair whipping, which, also our dance team is very white.
SARAH: Oh, yeah.
KAYLA: I don't know that Black hair would do well.
SARAH: You would have to have a weave that is straight.
KAYLA: You'd have to have a weave, or very long curly hair. Because my hair is very curly. I can't whip my hair. It doesn't move like – anyway.
SARAH: If you had braids or locks, you could do it, but it'd be like a weapon. You could knock someone out.
KAYLA: So he can't do the hairography because he has short hair.
SARAH: Yeah. But yeah, we were just talking about that because I was watching some dance videos of the Brigham Young University, their dance team. Which for those of you don't know, BYU is a Mormon school in Utah.
KAYLA: I mean, it's not only for Mormons.
SARAH: It's not only for Mormons.
KAYLA: But it is named after a Mormon prophet, and it is where the Mormons go to school.
SARAH: And so it's really interesting because their dance team is – I was very surprised by their dance team.
KAYLA: They're very good.
SARAH: They're very good. And they do a lot of hip hop. It's very hip-hoppy dance.
KAYLA: Yeah. Our dance is more like jazz.
SARAH: It's more jazzy. It's more ?? (31.38). It's more –
KAYLA: More sexual.
SARAH: Yeah. But that's the thing it's like, BYU, it's very hip-hoppy. But it's way less sexual and less –
KAYLA: Well, it's BYU.
SARAH: Exactly. But I just found that interesting, I was like, I really like their dance team. Not because I'm only here for modesty or whatever, I don't care about modesty, but it's just like, the sexual stuff makes me feel weird sometimes.
KAYLA: I actually saw a video recently from a YouTuber that I follow a bit. And they did the Buffer Festival, it's a video festival in Canada. So they've done ballet for their entire life, and they do ballet as part of their profession. And they're non-binary. And so they were talking about how – I think they're non-binary, they've been questioning for a while. But they used to identify as a woman, and now they think they're non-binary, whatever. But so they've always had the woman part in dance. And so for ballet, it's a very gendered dance.
SARAH: Very, very gendered.
KAYLA: Especially in, if you –
SARAH: Men don't even do pointe.
KAYLA: Men are there to support the women.
SARAH: To lift the woman, basically.
KAYLA: And so, this video was basically two non-binary people. And they had a dance together, and it was more mixed, who was supporting who, they took turns whenever. But a lot of the video was about, how do you navigate being non-binary in ballet, because you might look like the women so you're doing the women choreography because you just have the build for that, but you don't really want to wear the dresses. And what if maybe you're assigned sex is a woman, but you have more of the build of a man, but you identify –
SARAH: Yeah. That's the thing.
KAYLA: Yeah, it was a really, really interesting video, though.
SARAH: Yeah. And it's just like – I don't know. Also I know, a couple people who are on dance teams for professional sports teams. And their uniforms are very – Bra and underwear, essentially. And it's just a very sexual thing, and it's so just heteronormative catering to the male gaze because sports, stereotypically male.
KAYLA: And if you look at the Dallas Cowboy, the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders are quintessentially – There was a TV show, a reality show about making it on to them, and you had to be this skinny and blah, blah, blah. So I feel like that's another example of groups that aren't not inclusive, but also if you just look at the kind of people that are in it, it's usually white. They might not be straight, but they are straight-passing, I guess, or they don't look – I mean, I don't want to say they don't look queer, because what does a queer person look like. You know what I mean?
SARAH: Yeah, because they're there to entertain the audience, and the audience is assumed to be a bunch of straight guys. And so they're catering to that male gaze by having these dancers dance in a more provocative way. And to some extent, that's what our dance team does.
KAYLA: Oh, for sure.
SARAH: But I think that if we're going to circle back to the LGBTQIA+ spectrum, there's some issues with inclusivity there too, in that, just some corners, some pockets of the community are just not inclusive of, for example, like the ace community and blah, blah, blah. And I was thinking about that. I was like, well, what's the issue there? And I mean, part of the problem is that there is no governing body. There is no person in charge of the LGBTQIA+ community.
KAYLA: And there shouldn't be.
SARAH: Yeah, there shouldn't be, but it's like because there's no one in charge, it's very, very, grassroots. And that's a good thing, I think, on one hand. But on the other hand, when it’s grassroots, it can take so long to create a more inclusive community.
KAYLA: Yeah. I would say, with as big as the LGBTQIA+ community is now, things move rather slow. For some things, things will move faster. I mean, I don't know, I just get the sense of back in the '70s and '80s. It was, everyone was rallied against a few main things.
SARAH: And they started with nothing, so every stride they took was a huge stride.
KAYLA: Right. And you still did have – I'm in a queer media class, and there still was differences between people who were fighting for, we want to be equal with straight people and have all of the same rights as you. And then there was the camp of, we still want to be different.
SARAH: Separate but equal.
KAYLA: Right. So one group was like, we want equal marriage. The other group was like, why is marriage even a thing? So there's always been these two different things. And so, that was even back in the '70s and '80s, it was still that. But you just get this sense – It probably wasn't like this, the sense of looking back that everyone was railing against this one thing. Like the AIDS crisis, or –
SARAH: That's the narrative at least.
KAYLA: That is not true. I'm sure it wasn't that everyone was rallied against one thing, but that's the historical narrative that's painted. And so we're sitting here now, and it's like, well, no one's getting anything done, everyone's fighting internally. Because there's just so many people and so many different opinions, which on the one hand is good, but can sometimes be very disruptive.
SARAH: Right. But then also, you look at these other communities that, they do have governing bodies. Like Greek life sororities, they have governing bodies, and those governing bodies just aren't doing what they should to foster diversity. And so it's difficult, I mean, it's always going to be a fight, but it's just – It's frustrating, it's frustrating that you want to create a world that is inclusive to minority groups and groups who may not have historically been a part of this group of whatever it is, but I mean, it's hard to – How do you even do that? I don't know.
KAYLA: Well, what's hard to is that burden of creating inclusive spaces is put on the minorities. It is the queer people's responsibility to fight for the rights to make inclusive spaces, it's women's burden to fight for their equal rights, when they're already fighting against so much already. So that's why, I think, we run into these problems of how do we even construct these places? Because there's so much to construct and so much to change. And we're not even in those groups, we're trying to recreate things from the outside, and it's, what do you, what?
SARAH: Exactly. It's a struggle. Especially also when it is a pipeline issue, it's so hard to build a broader pipeline.
KAYLA: Well, and especially if you're the first person in that pipeline, your life is going to be hell. You're the first Black girl the sorority has ever had, your first queer girl the sorority has ever had, while you're the only one, your life is going to suck, and it might benefit people in the long run, because it'll get more Black or queer people in –
SARAH: You know what I saw recently? You know when schools were segregated and the whole Little Rock thing of that one little girl who was escorted into school, because a bunch of adults were screaming at her? Sorry, context for non-Americans, schools used to be segregated, you probably know that. But the first Black girl who was brought into a white school, not the first one but one of, early on –
KAYLA: The most famous story of desegregation.
SARAH: The most famous one. Basically, a bunch of white adults were threatening her and blah, blah, blah.
KAYLA: Picketing the school.
SARAH: They had to bring in - The Coast Guard?
KAYLA: I don’t know.
SARAH: They had to bring in people to escort this child.
KAYLA: It would not be the Coast Guard.
SARAH: You know what, the Coast Guard is not right. But they had to bring in people to escort this girl into school. And I saw thing online the other day about that woman, is only 60-something. And I was just like, what the fuck? We've come so far, but there's so far to go.
(40:00)
KAYLA: Yeah, because if you look back, the fact that she's only 60, it's like, wow, we have come so far in just her lifespan. But there is so far to go. And it's so painstakingly slow. It's just painfully slow.
SARAH: Yeah, I have a good segue. But first, what's our poll for the week?
KAYLA: Are you sad? Me too. Yes or no.
SARAH: I don't know. I really want to just segue into my beef of the week, because my beef of the week is very much related. My beef of the week – (sighs) So today is Sunday, October 7th 2018, as we're recording this.
KAYLA: It's true.
SARAH: And guess who just got confirmed to the U.S. Supreme Court.
KAYLA: This will be fun trivia if you're listening to this in several years.
SARAH: Brett Kavanaugh. Brett Kavanaugh was just recently – He was confirmed to the Supreme Court, even though there were several credible allegations of sexual assault against him. In his hearing, he was yelling about how much he likes beer.
KAYLA: My thing is that the sexual assault allegation aside, the way he was acting in court –
SARAH: Not fit to be a judge in the highest court of law in this country.
KAYLA: Judges in the Supreme Court are supposed to be nonpartisan; they're supposed to be completely unbiased, and he was –
SARAH: They need to present themselves and carry themselves in a way that is reasonable, and not screaming.
KAYLA: Right. My biggest issue was that the way he presented himself in court was screaming, yelling, blaming the Democrats, which I think even if you are a Republican, seeing that he's blaming Democrats, that's just very partisan. I don't care – If he was a Democrat yelling at Republicans, I'd have the same issue.
SARAH: Yeah, they're supposed to be nonpartisan.
KAYLA: Any judge is supposed to be nonpartisan. That's why we don't have elections for judges. That's why they're appointed. And to be so blatantly partisan, I don't care what you've done in your past. That alone means you shouldn't be on a court.
SARAH: And it's like, am I shocked that people didn't seem to care about the sexual assault allegations? Unfortunately, no. But am I disappointed? Yeah. I'm just so disappointed in the – From what I understand, they first voted and they tied, and a Democrat jumped ship. A Democrat from West Virginia, which is a state that went very red, that went very, very hard for Trump. Because coal mining, essentially. And it's rural.
KAYLA: West Virginia is not doing well in –
SARAH: Yeah. West Virginia is not doing well. I'm sorry, West Virginia. They jumped ship, and he got confirmed. And it's so frustrating, because it's such a huge step backwards for women. It's such a huge step backwards for – He's just not fit to be a judge.
KAYLA: I don't care what party he's on, I don't care what he's done in his past, I don't care if the allegation somehow wasn't even true.
SARAH: The FBI investigation, the allegation was not in depth. There were a lot of things that were wrong. But when he was in court, he was blaming it on Democrats.
KAYLA: He was screaming.
SARAH: He was crying.
KAYLA: He was screaming about how much he – He was just like, I like beer. They were asking him about, have you ever blacked out, because it was part of the story, and his response was, well, have you?
SARAH: To a woman, by the way.
KAYLA: To the woman questioning him. How unprofessional?
SARAH: A female Democrat senator questioning him. And it's just –
KAYLA: It is what now with him on the Supreme Court, Roe v. Wade is looking scary.
SARAH: It might get overturned. Also don't even get me started on Merrick Garland and the whole thing how Obama was trying to fill a seat, and they wouldn't let him and they waited until basically the Senate, which was a Republican Senate, basically they wouldn't let Obama's appointment through into the Supreme Court, because they were like, well, the election's coming up, we should let the new Senate do it.
KAYLA: They stalled and stalled and stalled.
SARAH: They stalled and stalled and stalled and stalled so that Trump could appoint someone, and then Trump appointed someone.
KAYLA: Didn't that person die too, the person he –
SARAH: No.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: Merrick Garland's still alive. Merrick Garland and Brett Kavanaugh came from the same court. So if Kavanaugh had gotten denied, he would have had to go back to the same court as Merrick Garland. Anyway, so that happened. So then they filled his spot with some horrible dude. And then this is because Kennedy is retiring.
KAYLA: If Ruth dies anytime soon –
SARAH: Ruth can’t die.
KAYLA: We're fucked.
SARAH: But people were just saying to the Republicans who have been saying these things, who were saying, you can't put Garland in, because we should wait until the new people who have been elected come into office. It's like, well, midterms are coming up. Shouldn't you do the same thing? Shouldn't you do the same? If that was your argument, then why is that not your argument now?
KAYLA: Nothing makes sense.
SARAH: And so everything is a disaster and I'm afraid. And that's my beef of the week. I'm afraid and I'm disappointed. Please vote in the midterms.
KAYLA: My beef of the week is the same. Afraid and disappointed, yes. Mostly, I'm tired.
SARAH: I'm exhausted.
KAYLA: I'm only 21, and I'm already so tired of dealing with this bullshit. I'm in an organizational studies class. So it's basically the studies of how work organizations function. And we had a big unit on discrimination, and a lot of it was very implicit discrimination against women and how it sets people back years in their career. Not even explicitly, just very little things adding up. And so, on top of learning that and then all this happens, I'm like, I'm only 21 and I don't know whether I can do this anymore.
SARAH: It's exhausting.
KAYLA: And the fact that there's 70-year-olds that have been fighting these cases for years –
SARAH: How do they do it?
KAYLA: I feel like giving up.
SARAH: For context, a Supreme Court judge placement, that's a life appointment. So this guy's what, like 50? He could be on that court for 30, 40 more years. He could be on that court until I am 60 years old.
KAYLA: Yeah. This isn't a little thing.
SARAH: Yeah. (sighs) If you're an American, if you're going to be 18 by November 6th, please register to vote. Please, if you're not registered – Well, by the time this comes out, it'll be too late to register in Michigan. But please vote. Please get your absentee ballot if you are able to. Please go to the polls if you're able to. If you're not able to, please encourage everyone you know to vote. It matters so frickin’ much. This turned into a political podcast. Turns out we're Pod Save America. (laughs)
KAYLA: I listened to them last week, it made me sad.
SARAH: Yeah, I like to listen to about America because it keeps me informed, but it also keeps me disappointed, sad and afraid. I mean, they try not to be total downers, but –
KAYLA: There's only so much you can do with the content that's out there.
SARAH: Only so much you can do. Donald Trump making fun of the victim. Oh, God. Yeah, we still need a poll.
KAYLA: Are you going to vote? Yes or no. Yes or yes.
SARAH: Yeah. Well, how about this? Are you going to vote in the midterm election? Yes, because it's my civic duty. No, because –
KAYLA: I'm too young.
SARAH: No, I'm going to say, yes, because my civic duty, no, because I'm legally not able to, or no, because I don't care about my country's future.
KAYLA: Oh, tea, sis.
SARAH: That's all.
KAYLA: The tea is so hot.
SARAH: Yeah. If you're able to vote, please vote.
KAYLA: And if you're not American, good. Can I come over?
SARAH: Also, beef of the week is gerrymandering, but that one's constant.
KAYLA: Oh, man.
SARAH: I hate gerrymandering.
KAYLA: She so does.
SARAH: Oh, I have some feelings. Okay. Yes, that's your poll. Sorry that it's not totally related to the content. But hey, it is because, while systemically, the Senate and the House and stuff, they're not exclusive of women and minorities. Historically, it's just been a bunch of white guys. And so if you vote for people who are minorities, then you can help make those spaces more inclusive spaces, and you can make those spaces more diverse. And that only creates an opportunity to have more laws that support minorities and more laws that create more and more inclusive, diverse spaces in our country. If you're not America, sorry about the rambling but America's a trash fire. So, sorry.
(50:00)
KAYLA: Yeah, sorry you have to deal with us. At least you got to laugh at Trump at the EU. Or no, it was the UN.
SARAH: It was the UN that laughed at Trump.
KAYLA: Not even just the EU, it was the entire UN.
SARAH: Yeah. So now I'm sad. You can find that poll, or you can be sad with us, or if you have any questions about voting –
KAYLA: It’s too late by then.
SARAH: Well, if they’re registered.
KAYLA: Oh, yeah.
SARAH: Please find us on our Twitter @soundsfakepod, you can also email us soundsfakepod@gmail.com. Or you can find us on Tumblr, soundsfakepod.tumblr.com.
We also have a Patreon, if you want to give us your money.
KAYLA: That would make us happy.
SARAH: That would make us a little bit happier. You can find us on patreon.com/soundsfakepod.
Our $2 patrons are Sara Jones and Keith McBlaine, our $5 patrons are Jennifer Smart, Asritha Vinnakota, Austin Le, Drew Finney and Perry Fiero.
And our $10 patron is Emma Fink, you can find her on YouTube by looking up Emma T Fink.
Thanks for listening, even though this was sad at the end –
KAYLA: (groans)
SARAH: Encourage diversity and inclusivity by being active about it, don’t just say you’re inclusive, try and actively reach out to minority groups and include them so that the world can become a more diverse and better place.
Tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.
KAYLA: And until then, register your cows to vote.
SARAH: And take good care of them, which, pretty synonymous.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Alright, bye.