Ep 397: Horseshoe Theory (kind of)
SARAH: Hey, what's up? Hello! Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl (I’m Sarah, that's me.)
KAYLA: And a bi-demisexual girl (that's me, Kayla.)
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand.
KAYLA: On today's episode: The Horseshoe Theory.
BOTH: Sounds fake, but okay.
SARAH: Welcome back to the pooooood!
KAYLA: Hi!
SARAH: Clip-clop, clip-clop.
KAYLA: What's that?
SARAH: A horse.
KAYLA: Oh
SARAH: It's wearing shoes, to protect its hooves.
KAYLA: Do you think they like wearing the shoes?
SARAH: Well, it's for hoof protection.
KAYLA: Yeah…
SARAH: If they're in the wild, they don't need them.
KAYLA: But do you think they like them?
SARAH: Maybe they find them a little annoying, but I think they would find it more annoying if their hooves were unprotected. Is it like cows where they... Let me just confirm why horses wear shoes.
KAYLA: Well, because their feet… like, it overgrows, right?
SARAH: Right.
KAYLA: But if they're in the wild, they're running around so much and it wears down.
SARAH: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Here's what it is; it's to protect their hooves from accelerated wear and tear caused by artificial or hard domestic surfaces.
KAYLA: So, we're the problem.
SARAH: So, it's the opposite of why we need to cut cats' nails. Because in the wild, we wouldn't need to cut their nails because they're naturally scratching them down.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Horses, it's the opposite, because when they're domesticated their hooves are being too much worn down. And so, they need to wear shoes to protect them.
KAYLA: Oh, to protect their feet.
SARAH: So, I think they would prefer that…
KAYLA: The more you know…
SARAH: To hoof ow, you know?
KAYLA: I suppose.
SARAH: Do you watch that guy, the hoof cleaner guy?
KAYLA: Yes, it's called a farrier.
SARAH: Yeah, yeah. You know the one guy though?
KAYLA: Probably.
SARAH: He always is cutting infections out of cow hooves.
KAYLA: Yeah, I know this man. It's crazy over there.
SARAH: Why do I watch it? I don't know.
KAYLA: It’s satisfying.
SARAH: Anyway…
KAYLA: Anyway…
SARAH: Hi, Kayla
KAYLA: Hi
SARAH: We have a housekeeping.
KAYLA: Yes!
SARAH: The housekeeping is I’m seeing more BTS and then I have a work dinner and my mom is in town, so, we're just not going to be here next week.
KAYLA: There's a lot going on.
SARAH: There's a lot going on. But we'll be back the week after. Sorry.
KAYLA: I think I will also have someone in my house.
SARAH: Oh, oh, fun.
KAYLA: I can have guests too.
SARAH: It has occurred to me that this work dinner at a Korean restaurant in K-town is in fact occurring while BTS will be in town.
KAYLA: So, they might… could be there.
SARAH: I have a… I just have a fear.
KAYLA: That you'll see them?
SARAH: Of them being there.
KAYLA: Oh
SARAH: And then my boss…
KAYLA: Oh, no
SARAH: Will say something weird.
KAYLA: Yeah. Do you think he'd go up to them?
SARAH: I don't know. He wouldn't recognize them to start.
KAYLA: Is it like, a fancy-enough restaurant where they would be there?
SARAH: I think it's a pretty decent restaurant, they have like a restaurant that is famously their favorite in LA. And it's not that, that's not the restaurant we're going to. But you never know.
KAYLA: You never know, they could be switching it up.
SARAH: The Koreans say that Korean barbecue in LA is better than Korean barbecue in Seoul.
KAYLA: I've heard that, that’s wild
SARAH: It's because in Seoul they put sugar in everything because of that Chef Paik guy.
KAYLA: Oh, okay.
SARAH: And LA recipes tend to be from an earlier time because the people who immigrated…
KAYLA: Shocking to have American recipes be the one with less sugar for once.
SARAH: I know. Also, they have better access to cheap fresh beef than they do in Korea…
KAYLA: Oh, I guess that makes sense
SARAH: Because they have Hanwoo beef in Korea which is very famous and very good, but it's expensive
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: So, if you want to get a cheaper beef, it will likely be imported.
KAYLA: I see
SARAH: And so, it's not as fresh. Whereas here, we got fucking cows.
KAYLA: I’m learning so much today.
SARAH: Yeah, now you know.
KAYLA: Now I know.
SARAH: Kayla, what are we talking about this week?
KAYLA: This week we're talking about horses and their shoes.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: I was thinking about this because we kind of touched on it. I think you actually brought up the theory by name two weeks ago.
SARAH: It was in a comment, yes.
KAYLA: I think it was when we were talking about biphobia coming from lesbians.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: And the horseshoe theory, I can pull up a real definition, but in kind of essence is… like, what we described it as, it is like being so like woke that you kind of like circle back around and become like conservative again.
SARAH: Problematic
KAYLA: Yeah. So, I feel… I was thinking about it because we talked about it briefly and then also, I've been seeing a lot of discourse about discourse on TikTok.
SARAH: Ugh, truly.
KAYLA: Just about people being like, we don't have any nuance anymore and like no one is allowed to say anything. Like this one person, I forget… I don't know if you have their username because you sent me the video too. But this person like made a video skit of like them putting a pot on their stove upside down. They were like, this is what TikTok discourse is like. And they put a pot on their stove upside down. And then like scrolled and they were like, the thing we need to consider about the girl that put her… whatever. And she just like… whatever. It's just video after video.
SARAH: And then she like issues an apology and then they're like, the apology didn't feel real.
KAYLA: Like she didn’t mean it. And she looked at the pot… like, if you slow down the video, she looked at the pot…
SARAH: She did it on purpose. Why did she not edit it out?
KAYLA: Yeah. This other one I saw too was this… she was like, this is what TikTok is like now, basically. And she just said, people should exercise more. And then the video paused and it was just scrolling text of all of the disclaimers of like, no, I don't mean like if you have a mobility issue. Like, I don't mean these people. Like, this is an exception of blah, blah, blah. Like, just all of the possible things someone could get mad about, whatever.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: So, I've seen a couple of those, then I've seen people be like, these couple of videos just like perfectly encapsulate the current moment of just like no nuance, everyone just trying to like, gotcha. Everyone, whatever.
SARAH: I, two things, one, only somehow related, one of my favorite tweets or responses to tweets recently has been the one where it's like, ‘no, this has been discussed extensively, you're just 21.’
KAYLA: Huh! That’s funny
SARAH: When people are like, how come no one ever talks about x, y, z? And it's like, no we have, you just weren't there
KAYLA: We have, you just weren't there yet
SARAH: And then the other thing is I saw some discourse on Twitter today about our girl Dolly Parton, may she rest in peace, my girl
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: Basically, being like, well, did she ever speak up against what's happening in Palestine?
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: And people were like, you are just using that as like a metric about whether she spoke up on this one specific thing and ignoring all of the other very good things she did in her life
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: You can't reasonably expect a person of notoriety to address every single issue. Do I think Palestine is a big issue? Yes. Is it something that I find personally important to me? Yes. But Dolly Parton's focus was elsewhere and that does not mean that she didn't care about people or do really good work
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like, it's just like the litmus test, oh, did you say…
KAYLA: She like made the Moderna vaccine, you guys
SARAH: I know, like, I am… I have her going through my blood every day
KAYLA: In your blood. I think I have a Moderna too. I think one of my boosters was a Moderna
SARAH: My first couple were Moderna and then my later boosters I think were mostly Pfizer
KAYLA: I think I got Pfizer in the start and then got Moderna later, I don't know
SARAH: Anyway
KAYLA: Anyway
SARAH: An extremely American conversation
KAYLA: What vaccines did they use outside of America?
SARAH: I think there are some other ones
KAYLA: Oh
SARAH: But also, like, it just feels very American to be like, well, this is the vaccine I got. And then this is the vaccine I got, I don't know
KAYLA: Yeah, but everyone is…
SARAH: I guess
KAYLA: I thought we were all doing it
SARAH: We'll find out, they'll tell us
KAYLA: Okay, they'll tell us, let us know
SARAH: So, I looked up horseshoe theory and it's a little bit different from what you're describing
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I know what you're describing and I understand it on an emotional level, but the technical definition of horseshoe theory is a little different
KAYLA: Yeah, I was looking it up earlier and I was like, okay, this is much more like textbook-y and like political theory than like… yeah
SARAH: Yes. So, the horseshoe theory argues that the far left and the far right are closer to each other than either is to the political center
[00:10:00]
KAYLA: Picture a horseshoe, like a U, and think how close the tips are and how they're closer together than they are to the base, that's the curvy part at the bottom.
SARAH: Yes. Another one of my favorite tweets/responses to tweets that I've seen going around is the one where it's like, there is more diversity of opinion on the right than there is on the left and it's always in response to an absolutely insane argument between two people on the right who both just have the most absurd opinions you've ever heard. And it's like, well, yeah, there is more diversity of thought among the right. It's just wild. Let me see if I can find it
KAYLA: What are you…
SARAH: I’m trying to give you… let me find an example. Ugh, there was a specific one that I saw recently, it's going to be too hard for me to actually find it
KAYLA: Me when I see a specific one recently
SARAH: No, but exactly. The problem is that most people respond with just the image of… it's a graph and so it's very hard to look it up because…
KAYLA: Mm, that's tough, because it's a picture
SARAH: It's a picture
KAYLA: Okay, well, just make me an example
SARAH: I’m trying to think of a good one. It would be like if someone was like, America is actually run by aliens from Neptune who are sticking aluminum buzzers into our heads
KAYLA: I see, right
SARAH: And then someone was like, no, no, no, no, no, America is being run by a small group of Muslim children
KAYLA: I see, okay, I’m getting the picture
SARAH: Like, yeah, those are two very different opinions but they're both on the Right
KAYLA: Right
SARAH: Whereas on the Left there is less of a diversity of opinions, but in my mind, they seem a little less far-fetched
KAYLA: Yeah. [Kayla’s cat meows] Excuse me, young lady, you don't even have anything to show me, you didn't even catch anything for me, you're just screaming, for no reason. Anyway.
SARAH: Anyway. Okay, so, horseshoe theory is technically about the Right and Left being closer to each other than the center. Which, honestly, it's definitely related to what we're talking about
KAYLA: Yes, I think what I was seeing was like specifically talking about like types of political systems. So, it was talking about like communism versus like, I don't know what you would call like the furthest Right, like, system of government
SARAH: I mean, just like authoritarian fascism
KAYLA: Right?
SARAH: But that's not… I don't know that fascism is a system of government in the way that communism is
KAYLA: Right. But basically, what I was seeing and I found some articles…
SARAH: Totalitarianism…
KAYLA: Yeah, maybe. I saw some articles kind of like talking about the theory and then also like debunking it. And they were kind of comparing Nazi Germany to communist Russia and looking at how they were… I think they were kind of saying similar in structure but not in ideology, which made sense to me, but then there's… it seems a lot of very smart academic discourse about whether that is true, like, the horseshoe theory is true or not
SARAH: Mm-hmm. In the context of…
KAYLA: That's not my concern
SARAH: Yes
KAYLA: Personally
SARAH: In the context of what we're talking about, we're talking about when people attempt to be so woke that it loops around and becomes problematic
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: Let me give you a real example of something that I experienced in my real workplace. We were casting for a role; this role was a doctor. And… well, we were casting for a couple of roles, one of them was a doctor. I don't remember what the other ones were, it was like a… it doesn't really matter
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: We wanted to cast a black actor as the doctor because we were like, oh… not because, but part of the thinking was like, oh, we definitely want some more diversity in this episode, like, we're… all things being equal between these two candidates, let's choose the one that's black for the purpose of diversity
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And we were told that certain people didn't like the optics of that because it felt like we were putting people of color, also looking at the other casting, they thought it looked like we were putting people of color in the roles that were like service positions
KAYLA: Uh-huh
SARAH: To which we said, “a doctor!?” Like, I mean, I guess, technically
KAYLA: But that's not what I…
SARAH: But it's not like, a cleaner or a janitor or a waiter…
KAYLA: Or a waiter, yeah
SARAH: It's a doctor
KAYLA: It's a doctor, a very good sought-after position to have
SARAH: And they were like, well, we just like want to make sure that like, it's not just basically… I don't remember how they phrased it, but basically the sentiment was, black people can be the villain too
KAYLA: Oh
SARAH: But they can't be the doctor…
KAYLA: They can’t be the good guy though, they can't be the nice doctor
SARAH: Like, they were like, black people can be anything, including the villain, but we don't want them to be the doctor
KAYLA: But not the doctor. You know what this reminds me of? It is Dean and I have been watching The Studio, which is the Seth Rogen show on Apple TV that's like… it follows… Seth Rogen plays this like movie studio exec and it's just like him being terrible at his job basically, like, cringe comedy. And there's an arc throughout the season that they're making the Kool-Aid movie because Hollywood wants more movies like Barbie
SARAH: Did you talk about this last week or two weeks ago?
KAYLA: I think I told you about it
SARAH: Oh, maybe it wasn't on the pod, okay
KAYLA: I don't know if we recorded it, well, if I… too bad. But basically, they cast Ice Cube as the Kool-Aid man and then when they're like about to announce the cast at Comic Con, like, hours until then they're like, oh my God, is it racist that we cast a black man as the Kool-Aid man? So, then they go talk to some like black people they find
SARAH: Just off the street?
KAYLA: No, it's like around the studio. And they get a variety of opinions and based on what they're told they're like, okay, well, we need to like… because his wife was going to be… I don't remember her name, but his wife was going to be an Asian woman. And then voicing the Kool-Aid like his wife, but then there was a Live Action family and they were all white. And so, then they started like switching around the casting and then it was like, well, it doesn't make sense for this person to be this race because we need to like account for this, whatever. So, then at the end they ended up with an all-black cast and then the two writers who were white were like, we can't write on this, like, this isn't our movie anymore
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And then in the end they ended up having to use AI because they had to do so many rewrites and then everyone ended up being upset at them for the AI usage not the race of any of the cast. And they were like, phew, thank God we like avoided that… whatever
SARAH: Thank God it's just the AI
KAYLA: Yeah. But the whole episode was them being like, are we racist? How do we… and then they ended up talking about like…
SARAH: How do we telegraph to the world that we're not racist?
KAYLA: No, literally. And then they were like, okay, we need this… like, let's make the cast the same like diversity makeup as like the world or like the United States. So, we need like five percent or like half of a Hispanic person to make up for this
SARAH: We need half of a Pacific Islander. Where can we find half of a Pacific Islander?
KAYLA: Yeah. So, they were like talking about it like that and then they were like, you guys, we can't keep saying things like this, it was crazy
SARAH: Like, I know that that is comedy…
KAYLA: But it’s real
SARAH: But it is based in very real experiences
KAYLA: Yeah, I gather that a lot of the show is heavily based on reality
SARAH: And mind you, it's usually a room full of exclusively white people having this conversation, I would like to note
KAYLA: Yeah, in the show it was like three white execs and then they went to one of the younger execs who was a woman of color, of a color I’m not sure. And they were like, well, she's young and like she's a person of color, we think…
SARAH: We think!?
KAYLA: So, like, let's ask her. And then it was like… yeah
SARAH: I was in a conversation recently where someone was like, well, does so and so count as a person of color? They're Armenian
KAYLA: Oh, oh!
SARAH: And I think we decided that, yes
KAYLA: I could not say at all and I won't try to say either
SARAH: Based off of the Armenian people I know, I believe the majority of them identify as white, but then again, middle eastern people in the United States according to the census technically are white
KAYLA: Really!?
SARAH: Yes
KAYLA: Huh!
SARAH: That's why they're trying to add the MENA category which is Middle Eastern and North African
KAYLA: I see
SARAH: Because technically middle eastern people… like, people who are like Arabic come from Arabic places, according to the United States census, are white
KAYLA: And this is what I’m saying when I say everything is made up, because like…
SARAH: I think that also… it skews the statistics too
[00:20:00]
KAYLA: Just like, how are we supposed to decide like where to draw line? Like, around the squiggly countries, you know
SARAH: Wars, usually
KAYLA: Oh, okay
SARAH: Wars or bodies of water, generally
KAYLA: Mm. But I don't mean just between the countries, I mean, like, between the like, okay, if you come from this country, you're Middle Eastern, but if you come from this country that's right next door, now you're white
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: Explain me that, God
SARAH: Like, there are people who live in continental Russia who are like indigenous peoples, who look more like people from China than they do like people from Moscow. But if you say Russia, like Russian, you're going to assume a white person, nothing is real
KAYLA: Girl, I don't know a single thing, I don't know anything
SARAH: Nothing is real. Anyway. What?
KAYLA: The horseshoe
SARAH: The horses and their shoes…
KAYLA: And their shoes
SARAH: So, in what context are we discussing this today? Kayla?
KAYLA: Well, I was just trying to think… because I know we talked about like biphobia from gay women
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: Which I feel like is a pretty good example of this, it is like you're being so woke of like… I think in a way trying to like…
SARAH: Decenter men
KAYLA: Yeah, decenter men, trying to like protect your community but in a way that ends up being very exclusionary
SARAH: Yes, and harmful to people who by all accounts are a part of your broader community
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Because they also are sapphic
KAYLA: Yeah. But to me I feel like the far right like part of their ideology is being very exclusionary, it's very like, here's the in group, the privileged group, and then here's the out group
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: Not to say there's not a place for sometimes you need a small group of like-minded people, that's fine, but…
SARAH: Here's the gigantic disclaimer
KAYLA: Here's the disclaimer, I understand, I understand why you're like, I as a lesbian just want to hang out with my lesbians for a little bit and like chit chat about that, with just people who have an exact experience as me because I need that to commiserate with people. Fine, good, but you can't be doing that all the time and being nasty about it
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Anyway. So, I was thinking of that and I was just trying to think of other examples where this happens in the queer community and specifically in the aspec community as well
SARAH: Mm-hmm. Can I say something about the aspec community?
KAYLA: You can try
SARAH: Today I learned the phrase…
KAYLA: Wait, maybe don't, because we could maybe make a whole episode about this
SARAH: Can that be a whole episode?
KAYLA: I don't know, we're so desperate for content
SARAH: I don't think we can make a whole episode out of it
KAYLA: All right
SARAH: I learned today that there is a phrase called anattractional spectrum. I encountered this phrase in a fan fiction. I had never heard of this before, but it was posited alongside the term queer platonic, to which I said, I know that one. And so, I looked up anattractional spectrum. And you know what it is?
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: Aspec, it's just aspec. But the internet says…
KAYLA: Is it the same aspec or a different aspec?
SARAH: The same. The internet says that aspec is basically short for an anattractional spectrum. I assumed it was just short for A-spectrum, like a as a prefix
KAYLA: I thought it was just like shortening… like, instead of saying like asexual and aromantic spectrum because that's just a whatever, it's too long, it was just like, we'll just say, a, because it stands for both
SARAH: Right, same, but…
KAYLA: How long has this been around? Who was going to tell us about this?
SARAH: I don't know, I’m seeing… well, that's an incorrect definition on the MOGAI Wiki, but other places it is properly… advertised? Defined, defined. It's an umbrella term for orientation types that lack attraction, the prefix ‘an’ meaning without or lacking
KAYLA: Who was going to tell me about this?
SARAH: A fan fiction from me was apparently… I was like, I am I stupid?
KAYLA: Maybe
SARAH: I've written a book. I have a podcast; we're almost at 400 episodes!
KAYLA: Actually, kind of embarrassing, yeah
SARAH: Anyway
KAYLA: Listen, there's always more to learn
SARAH: There is always more to learn. What the fuck is MOGAI? It's about labels and identities, but it doesn't even have a fucking… it doesn't even have the proper definition
KAYLA: That's embarrassing
SARAH: It says… now, maybe the… it says anattractional also known as attractionless or non-attached is an orientation in which one does not experience any form of attraction whatsoever, does not experience sexual attraction or romantic attraction or any form of tertiary attraction. But that…
KAYLA: That's a different…
SARAH: It’s different
KAYLA: That's not a spectrum, I don't think
SARAH: Yeah. And this is spelled with one a and two t's and anattraction spectrum… oh, I see, that's anattrac… no, it is anattractional, no, they're all spelled the same, it's just different definitions of the same word. This is why everyone is confused all the time about the aspec.
KAYLA: Listen, we're just figuring it out, just figuring it out
SARAH: I too am confused
KAYLA: What are you going to do?
SARAH: Anyway. In the aspec communities, being so woke that it loops around to become problematic, let's discuss
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: Good talk
KAYLA: Good talk, bye! No. The one… I couldn't think of many examples, which is good, I think. The only thing I could think of which I don't even know how prevalent this is, is people being like gold star aces or aros being like, you know, I've never had sex or I've never had a romantic relationship or whatever. So, like, I’m a true asexual or aromantic and you people are just like… whatever
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Because that feels very exclusionary to me. I don't know if I would say… like, that's obviously very exclusionary, I don't know that that's like looping all the way back around
SARAH: Well, I think it's looping back around to a certain sense of purity culture
KAYLA: Yeah, that’s true
SARAH: And superiority based on purity culture and superiority based on a certain experience of the world, it's just a different one than the one that the dominant social order rewards
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: It's just you're making your own big boss, cool kid in your own smaller more insular community and that's a problem. I think there's also an inverse of that, not exactly, but it does feel emotionally opposite
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: Which is when people swing too hard trying to explain that not everyone is both aro and ace, full stop
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: And they try and explain like oh, it's a spectrum, they may still experience sexual attraction, they may still experience x, y, z. And then they make it seem like straight up aro and straight up ace are not legitimate or real
KAYLA: Oh, yes, that makes sense, I thought you were going to…
SARAH: By trying to validate the fact that like the more closer to the middle of the spectrum identities are real, you know
KAYLA: Yes, yeah. I feel like a lot of people will do like, oh, I’m ace, but like I still feel like romance, like, I’m not crazy or like, oh, I’m aro, but like I still have sex, I’m not like weird, you know that kind of thing
SARAH: Yeah, that sort of thing
KAYLA: Where it becomes exclusionary, yeah. I feel like I've heard… and maybe we've talked about it in episodes with guests before, but we've talked about the kind of like overlap and tensions between the aspec and like disability communities because often people with disabilities are seen as asexual and so to kind of combat that they're like, oh, no, like, we're… like that's crazy…
SARAH: We're normal like you
KAYLA: We're normal like you. And then asexual people will be like, no, I’m just like this, like, I don't have a disability, I’m just… like, I’m, you know, able-bodied, I’m whatever
SARAH: I’m normal because I don't have a disability, it goes both ways
KAYLA: Yeah. And so, yeah, just like using the other community or the other thing to be like no, no, no like, I’m… it's fine, because I’m not like this other group
SARAH: Yeah, they feel the need to use it as like a shield to protect themselves from whatever criticism which is usually unwarranted and useless, but… the criticism that will come their way, yeah
KAYLA: Yeah. The one other one I was thinking of which I don't know if I've ever seen this, maybe once or twice on like Reddit or something, but someone being so sex or romance… or I guess… okay, so, I was going to say being so sex or romance-averse that you're like, no one should do this
SARAH: Yeah
[00:30:00]
KAYLA: Like, kind of like truly pure, purity culture
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Which I don't know if I've ever seen that
SARAH: I've never actually seen that, yeah. But I think that's what a lot of allos think that aspecs are like
KAYLA: Yes, but I do think I've seen, and I think to a certain extent it's like… okay, I feel like I have seen some people be like, oh, like, as an aro or an ace, like, I’m so superior to allos because I don't experience this and like I’m just like a better person because I don't have to worry about all of that
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Which I think to a certain extent is good and fine because it's like seeing the benefits of your life the way it is and being like oh, it's actually really great to be this way because I get to benefit from x, y, z. I don't have to deal with the drawbacks of…
SARAH: Like, I feel that way, I’m like, I’m not wasting my fucking time dating, that seems horrible, like, I feel that way. But it's also like, any other people who do date or choose to date, that doesn't mean they're just constantly wasting their time, it doesn't mean that I’m better than them for the fact that I don't, it just means we experience things differently and I am glad that I don't have to deal with that but they might be glad that they do, if and when they find someone who they want to have as their romantic partner
KAYLA: Yeah. I could just see some… again, I don't know that I've ever really seen this, but I could imagine someone kind of just feeling a sense of superiority of like, oh, these like silly little people with all of their issues. Like, I’m above that, I don't have to deal with that, blah, blah, blah.
SARAH: Yeah. Like, you're a slave to your libido and I am not
KAYLA: Yeah. And I am pure and perfect
SARAH: Yeah. I mean, sometimes I look at allos and I’m like, “you did what!? Why!?
KAYLA: Yeah, I mean, again, I think there are some like very… like, sometimes it's… yeah. But if you like truly think you're like a better person then that loops around to like, okay, this is… you did not get to choose your sexuality, like you didn't get to choose to be this way. So, you don't get to just be like, well, I’m better than you because of this thing that was assigned to me randomly by like fate or DNA or whatever, you know
SARAH: Yeah. I think another thing, and I almost didn't say this because I was like, it gets testy, but I think it goes both ways; it is the extreme connection to micro labels versus the extreme rejection of micro labels
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And people who are really into their specific micro labels kind of pushing it onto others and being like oh, you're this, you're that, you're… whatever
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And like they're trying to help them understand themselves but they're also forcing them into this way of identifying that like maybe is right for them but is not right for everyone
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: The adverse… Converse?
KAYLA: Opposite?
SARAH: That doesn't sound as good
KAYLA: Okay, sorry
SARAH: The opposite side of that is people who are like, micro labels are stupid, we don't need them, we don't need to be thinking that deeply. Like, it's a waste of time, just let yourself be queer, let yourself be aspec
KAYLA: Yeah, I think… I don't know, I've never seen someone who uses micro labels trying to like shove micro labels onto other people, but I feel like I have seen people say like, oh, you can't identify this way because you experience x, y, z, so, actually, like, get out of here, this isn't the right word for you
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Which, like, again, I have a level of understanding for that of like, clearly by using a micro label you're trying to find a community of people like you and you're trying to like find something that fits, you're trying to find people to connect with and commiserate with. And so, I can understand the frustration of like, oh, this person, like, I don't connect with them, I don't feel like we're having the same experience, so, I don't think… you know, I don't want them to be here. On the one hand I get that, but also, to tell someone how they should be identifying and telling them, like, no, you don't deserve this micro label because of x, y, z. Like, that is just, again, exclusionary
SARAH: And I understand wanting to have like a single specific definition for what something means, I understand wanting to be clear about that
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But the definition of a micro label can't just be exactly whatever you experience and anyone who deviates from that in any way has to find their own label, because in that case you know what the label is? That's just your government name
KAYLA: It’s not a label anymore, yeah
SARAH: That's just your social security number, bud. So, like… yeah, I think… I understand… like, if someone is genuinely misunderstanding what a label means, that's one thing
KAYLA: Sure
SARAH: But if their experience is slightly different from yours and you're like, no, you can't do that, even if it falls under the definition of what… and then you get into the… like, people disagreeing on what the definition is, like, we just had with anattraction, you know
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like, there's still that being worked out in parts of the community, especially because we are a community that does have so many micro labels, but… yeah
KAYLA: Yeah, I don't know, it's tough. I think… I kind of understand both sides of arguments with micro labels because I think people who are against them, often the argument is like, this is confusing, like, why do we need this? It's like confusing as a community to know like what we're talking about
SARAH: Like, we're almost segregating ourselves even more by putting ourselves in these really, really tiny boxes
KAYLA: Right, which like…
SARAH: And people on the outside don't respect it, they think it's crazy, which on one hand, who cares what the fuck people on the outside think? But on the other hand, it's like, what is the benefit of this? Like, weighing all of those things
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: It's a fair conversation to have as long as you're coming into it in good faith
KAYLA: Yeah. I think where I always land on it is like, if someone finds a micro label they really identify with and it helps them to label themselves that way, like, why am I going to tell you not to do that?
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Like, it… you know, demisexual is a micro label of… like, I guess a bigger micro label because more people identify it with it than maybe some of the smaller ones
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: But like, it's helpful to be more specific. And so, like, it's not bothering me to have someone else find a word that they really vibe with and connect with. Like, what is that harming me? You know
SARAH: This reminds me of a conversation I had with my mom, who first of all, was like… she did diagnose my knees and she diagnosed me with ‘go to the doctor.’
KAYLA: Huh! That's so interesting
SARAH: But she did diagnose me with, ‘yep, I've experienced that.’ And I said, oh, no.
KAYLA: Mm, it's almost just like what I had said, that's so crazy
SARAH: But she also said when she was listening to that episode when we were talking about whatever we were talking about in that episode of like elder queers not really getting it, she has said that she had had conversations with our family friends, two of which are gay men who are married to each other, and one of them is like ten years older than my parents, and they obviously all know about my identity and that sort of thing and this man, the older one of the two, like, didn't really get the aspec thing, but like, he kind of like… okay
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And then it like came up again and he was like, well, I don't understand… basically, like, like how do they know? You know?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like, how do they really know if they haven't…
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: If they haven't… maybe they just haven't met the right person yet. And my mom was like, okay, but that's the same people… that's the same thing people used to, and sometimes still do…
KAYLA: Still do, yeah
SARAH: Say to gay people about not being interested in women
KAYLA: And did your mom ask him like, well, how do you know that you only like men? Did you try?
SARAH: He was married to a woman, actually
KAYLA: Okay, well, he did try
SARAH: But she was basically just like, you are doing…
KAYLA: Yeah, the same thing
SARAH: To that community the same thing that was done unto you. And he was like, oh.
KAYLA: Oh. Okay, Julie!
SARAH: She was like, if it were just about me, like, I wouldn't care. But she was like, but I am not going to let him say that…
KAYLA: Oh my God! Julieeee!
SARAH: And she was saying that like my dad is in a situation where like he doesn't really get the whole thing, but he's… It's none of his business, he doesn't care, he's like okay, sure, fine
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like, you don't have to fully understand something, it's nice if you want to learn to fully understand it, but even if you do a lot of research into it and you still don't totally get it, like me with furries, as long as you still respect them and are like, cool, you do you, then that is fine
KAYLA: Yeah. I feel like that is what's missing, it is, I just can't imagine that all of the queer discourse that goes on that people are actually… that all of these people who are so angry are actually… each one of them being personally affected by what they're annoyed by
SARAH: Mm
KAYLA: Do you know what I mean?
SARAH: I think so, but can you give an example?
KAYLA: Okay, take the like lesbians being biphobic example
SARAH: Mm-hmm
[00:40:00]
KAYLA: I understand it more if you are a lesbian who is like, I have this really specific experience that I want to talk to other lesbians about that like only someone who's only attracted to women would understand
SARAH: Yeah, like, maybe like figuring out that you weren't attracted to men
KAYLA: Sure
SARAH: Your experience with that or like that sort of thing, yeah
KAYLA: Yes. And maybe you had a bad experience where you were like trying to discuss that with your lesbians and then this bi woman she came in and was being crazy and she was ruining your safe space
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: Then I would be like, okay, I get where you're coming from, I get the annoyance and why you're like hesitant around bi women or whatever
SARAH: I mean, if that happened once, I would say I would understand their hesitance if that happened many times, it just happened once
KAYLA: Right. But this is what I’m saying, has that happened many times to every single lesbian who's on TikTok being annoyed or are they just annoyed at the hypothetical?
SARAH: They're annoyed at the hypothetical
KAYLA: Because like, is it really affecting you in your real life?
SARAH: Like, have you actually had ten bisexual women cheat on you with men?
KAYLA: Right
SARAH: Has that actually happened?
KAYLA: Or have you just heard about that happening to other people because people are posting about it on TikTok? And did it actually happen to those people are they just making videos?
SARAH: It happened to one person once
KAYLA: Right
SARAH: And then they… yeah
KAYLA: Yeah. Like, I feel like so much of this discourse is like hypotheticals or like…
SARAH: Anecdotal
KAYLA: Anecdotal or just like, the idea of something happening. And it's like, okay, yeah, if that did happen, that would suck
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: But like are we going to write off an entire group of people just because maybe it would suck if that happened to you?
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: Like, if a furry came up and punched me in the face once, I'd be like, well, that person is crazy, if a million furries punched me in the face throughout my lifetime, then I would probably be anti-furry
SARAH: Like, maybe there's something in their belief system that leads them to punch Kayla’s face
KAYLA: Right, of like, they're really violent people. But like, why would I… like, what are they doing to me? They're not doing anything to me. So, why would I care about them? Like, not in a bad way I don't care about you, but like, that's just not my business
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Why do you care?
SARAH: It's like if a black person steals your purse, that sucks, I’m sorry that happened, that doesn't mean that all black people are thieves and criminals
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Fox News would have you think so
KAYLA: Indeed
SARAH: But that's not a reasonable conclusion to come to
KAYLA: This is what I’m saying, we're just like stereotyping
SARAH: And it would be racist to say that that is what that means
KAYLA: Yeah. At this point we're just like stereotyping but within our own community and not in like a fun silly hee-hee like…
SARAH: You like flannel
KAYLA: Right. Not in a silly hee-hee way, like in a stinky nasty way
SARAH: In a harmful way. It's just… we're doing unto people in our community what has been done unto us and it's not…
KAYLA: It's not cute
SARAH: Do you have any other examples of being so woke that you loop around to being problematic?
KAYLA: Maybe the like topping and bottoming thing, like that… like…
SARAH: I think we need to have… I think we should invite Dalton King…
KAYLA: I know, we do need to have a whole… because we keep bringing it up
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But I think when we get into that I think the gender roles that that is encompassing is like, what are we doing? What are we doing?
SARAH: Yeah. I don't even know if that's so woke it's problematic, I think it's just so problematic it’s problematic…
KAYLA: I think that's just gay people being crazy. Yeah, maybe
SARAH: Yeah. I’m trying to think if there's anything else
KAYLA: I feel like there has to be some like crazy stuff going on with poly people of like restrictions going on of like, you know, I don't know, I just feel like…
SARAH: There has got to be
KAYLA: With like more complex relationship structures like that, like more than just… anything non-monogamous, I feel like there's probably people out there that are like doing it so wild
SARAH: Yeah, I’m sure there are people who are like, well, I’m allowed to do this, but you're not
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And that's just like… that's just my preference
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But it's like, if you're saying that you're allowed to date as many people as you want but your partner is not then that’s just… polygamy?
KAYLA: Then that's just… yeah, unless your partner is into that, then that's okay
SARAH: Right. But if like, that's your rule…
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And you're imposing it upon that person I think that just becomes polygamy…
KAYLA: That is just kind of polygamy, I think
SARAH: That is not poly
KAYLA: I now live in the polyamory capital of the world
SARAH: Even more than Seattle?
KAYLA: All I know is… I live in Somerville now, don't find me… it's okay you can find me. Don't be weird about it; one time when I used to live in Baton Rouge someone made a really nasty comment on like our iTunes and like signed it as the Baton Rouge like tourist committee or whatever. And I was like, oh, so, you found where I live and are being crazy. So, no one be crazy. I live in Somerville. All I know is that there are some laws in Somerville that like legally protect polyamorous people, I don't remember what they are. But the… so many gay people, so many gay people and poly people are living in here
SARAH: Good for them. I hope they're not so woke they loop around to be problematic
KAYLA: I think it's very possible that we have some
SARAH: Yeah, probably. I think anyone who gets too comfortable…
KAYLA: It became the first, it's loading, the first US city to pass non-discrimination protections for non-monogamous families and relationships
SARAH: Mm
KAYLA: So, there you go
SARAH: There you go. I just think that anyone… I think it's a part of the human condition that if you are in your in group and you get too comfortable and you get too much power within your in group, you're going to start to wield it in dangerous ways
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And that's why we need to have checks on people, for example, democracy
KAYLA: Mm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm
SARAH: Because suddenly you get a taste of what it's like to be big man with big boot and you don't want to give that up, because you're like, wait, this rocks.
KAYLA: Kind of fun, yeah
SARAH: Okay, great. Kayla, what's our poll for this week?
KAYLA: What is a time you saw someone be so woke they looped it right back around?
SARAH: I would love to hear about it in the queer community but I would also happily hear about it just out in the world
KAYLA: Yeah, indeed
SARAH: I want to know what horrible things are going on. Kayla what's your beef and your juice for this week?
KAYLA: Okay, this week I have a gravy, I’m going to try to tell a story, not really long. Okay?
SARAH: You can do it
KAYLA: So, I have a laptop, my personal laptop that I’m using to record right now. I don't think I've told you any of this story, actually.
SARAH: Okay
KAYLA: And for a while now it has just been getting kind of slow, like, it sounds like it's taking off into the air…
SARAH: It’s hot?
KAYLA: When I do anything, it gets really hot
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: So, like, maybe over a year ago, my friend was, like, oh, you should like back it up and then completely wipe the computer and put everything back on, like, sometimes that helps to just kind of like reset it and clear the junk out
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: And I was like, okay, and then I never did that
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: Recently, I got the motivation to do this because there's a video game that I wanted to play and it was compatible on Mac and I was like, slay. But I don't think my computer in its current condition could run a game right now. So, I was like, okay, I'll actually clean it out. So, I get the external hard drive from my friend and I’m backing up my computer and as I’m backing it up, I find that the game is only compatible on the new Macs with like the new chip, the Silicon chip not the Intel chip that my old one has. So, I was like, well, fuck you. But I’m already here, so I guess I'll just keep doing it because I've been meaning to do this forever
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: So, I back up the computer. The next day I wipe it, erase everything, including like the OS. So, it's like nothing. Okay? Wiped it. I go I reboot it. I log in. It says, activation lock, sign in with the apple account associated with this computer. I said, huh, easy, I know my Apple account. Du, du, du, I type it in. It said, this computer is associated with a different account. I said, that's weird. I try some other emails, I try some other things; and then I realize none of them work. I’m looking up activation locks on the internet, everyone is like, yeah, if you can't get in, you're fucked, you have a paperweight now. Like, the only way to get past it is maybe if you give like a proof of purchase to Apple, maybe they'll help you get past it. But it's like an anti-theft thing so they don't really like to do that. I then remember that the reason I have this laptop is because it was my work laptop from my old job that when I got laid off they said you can keep it, I then sent it back to them and they scrubbed it and allegedly took it out of their system. When it came back to me, I remember rebooting it and like some weird stuff popped up and I messaged them and I was like, hey, I don't know if you did this right, some stuff is popping up. And they were like, it looks fine on our end, we don't see it in our system anymore, you should be good. And I was like, okay. So, now here I am, two years later and I say, I’m pretty sure it's my old work email that it's wanting and that isn't a real email anymore.
[00:50:00]
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: So, then I proceed to fully crash out
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: I’m sobbing, I’m on the floor. I was supposed to have plans, I say, Dean go without me, I need to sit here and talk to myself about how stupid of a bitch I am. He's like, I don't really think you're stupid but, okay
SARAH: That doesn’t seem correct but, yeah, okay
KAYLA: I email my old work’s IT, I go to the same thread from years ago when I was like, I don't think you did this right. I said, hey, it's me…
SARAH: Your bitch!
KAYLA: Two years later, I don’t know if you can help me, but I did this and I either need access to my old email or the proof of receipt of purchase for this computer and… that was like Saturday, on Monday morning at 8:30 A.M, my boy Welly, shout out
SARAH: Welly!
KAYLA: Emails back, he's like, I could help you, just give me the serial number. I say, okay, here it is, a couple of hours later, he's like, good news, it is still in our system, liars, it is still in our system, I removed the activation lock and I removed it from our system. And then I was able to log in and it didn't need the activation lock and I logged in and it opened and I was able to reload my things on and here we are. And Dean said, I think you should apologize to your past self, and I said, no, that bitch can rot in hell!
SARAH: Oh!
KAYLA: What a series of events I went through!?
SARAH: Shout out to Welly
KAYLA: Shout out to Welly, but also, they're big fat liars, because I was assured that it was out of… like, how sketchy that it has been in their system this whole time!? Have they just been watching me!?
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: So, my theory… because he handled it like quick and fast, no questions asked. So, I was like, oh, they've been doing this before. Clearly, I’m not the first person to come back and be like, hey? The hell!?
SARAH: Yeah. Hey, bitch! That's crazy
KAYLA: So, that's my gravy; because it was so bad and then it was fine. Did it really help my computer? I don't know, it's still pretty hot right now
SARAH: Yeah. How old is the computer?
KAYLA: Well, I started working there in 2021 and I think it was a new laptop. I don't think it's old enough to be like that bad.
SARAH: I think with Apple laptops…
KAYLA: I know, it’s getting worse and worse
SARAH: They're crapping out at like four or five years
KAYLA: I know. But I don't need to… I can't run the game anyway because they won't let me have it
SARAH: Booo!
KAYLA: So, here we are. And that is my gravy
SARAH: Great. I have also a sort of gravy which is BTS. Okay, my juice is I went to the BTS shows in Toronto…
KAYLA: So good
SARAH: Wonderful, delightful, surprise songs, I got to see so many of my friends, it was great, the Sunday show especially was the fucking delightful. Here's my beefs; I have two. One, the Saturday show… okay, so, Rogers Stadium in Toronto, it's actually in North York, isn't a real stadium
KAYLA: Oh!
SARAH: No sports teams play there
KAYLA: Oh!
SARAH: It is exclusively for like concerts and stuff
KAYLA: That’s kind of fun
SARAH: And it is a relatively recent-build
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: There's also Rogers Center which Ed Sheeran was playing the same day…
KAYLA: Oh, confusion
SARAH: And caused a lot of confusion
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Rogers Stadium is completely outdoors
KAYLA: Oh
SARAH: There is no part of Rogers Stadium that is indoors, other outdoor stadiums, you like have to go through inside to get back outside
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: There is none of that
KAYLA: A bold thing to do in Canada
SARAH: So, it was supposed to rain a lot on Saturday
KAYLA: Nooo!
SARAH: We get to the venue, the show is at 8, we get to the venue, it is about 5:45, we get in line to go in, it starts raining, it does not stop
KAYLA: Ugh, good!
SARAH: It rains and it rains and it rains a lot, it thunders and lightnings…
KAYLA: Oops!
SARAH: Many times. They had to… anyone who was in the stands already had to evacuate, because mind you, this stadium is in the middle of a field…
KAYLA: So where did they put people!?
SARAH: This stadium was built on what was formerly an airport, it is just on the tarmac, the parking was just on the tarmac
KAYLA: Why did they do that!?
SARAH: And so, it is pouring rain, everyone is soaked, everyone is wearing like ponchos…
KAYLA: But where did they put the people during the lightning!?
SARAH: Nowhere…
KAYLA: That is terrible
SARAH: They just couldn't be in the stands
KAYLA: That is insane
SARAH: So, then like there were like food places that like had little tiny overhangs and then people were like just like standing under the little tiny overhangs and like some of the merch line was outside but some of it was under a tent so then people were just like hovering under the tent
KAYLA: Mm
SARAH: I have never been so wet in my life. I took… my mom made me take a picture of her pants, it looked like a wetsuit
KAYLA: Wow!
SARAH: The last lightning was at 7:27 P.M.
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: Mind you, the show was at 8
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: They started letting us back into the stands at about 7:45
KAYLA: Huh!
SARAH: Which is not correct
KAYLA: No
SARAH: It's supposed to be half an hour
KAYLA: Listen…
SARAH: I guess they were looking closely at the radar
KAYLA: Sure, I’m sure they were
SARAH: And that was the last lightning, to be fair. Also, the bathrooms were like one step above porta potties
KAYLA: Oh, good
SARAH: It was giving like airplane bathrooms sort of
KAYLA: Okay, yeah
SARAH: But they were like one square foot, everyone is soaked…
KAYLA: Oh God!
SARAH: So, it's difficult…
KAYLA: Yeah, to take off your clothes
SARAH: And it's mostly women, also. So, it's more of an involved process to use the bathroom
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: You're soaked so it's really hard to get your pants off, essentially
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: You have no space to do so
KAYLA: Oh my God! You might as well just pee at yourself at that point because no one could tell
SARAH: Well, and then I went to grab the toilet paper but my hand has been…
KAYLA: Wet
SARAH: Wet for three hours and it's one ply. So, I grab the toilet paper and it disintegrates in my hand
KAYLA: Yeah, that's tough
SARAH: And then I went over to where the sinks were and I washed my hands and then I went to dry them. And I was like, why am I even doing this?
KAYLA: What's the point?
SARAH: And usually….
KAYLA: And didn't you just wash your hands by holding them up to the sky? Like…
SARAH: Usually, I cannot stand my hands not being completely dry after I wash my hands
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like, some people are just like, oh, yeah, I'll just like, a little bit and then walk away. No, I will stand under the hand dryer, I will stand there getting more paper towel. Like, I’m that person, but in this instance, I was like, it doesn't fucking matter
KAYLA: It doesn't matter, it just doesn't matter
SARAH: Luckily, during the show it did stop raining for like the middle of the show and then at the end of the show it started raining again.
KAYLA: Mm
SARAH: So, I have videos of them performing where like it's pouring rain
KAYLA: Good!
SARAH: And everyone is just wet. Also, the floor, there were guys whose job was to take a giant squeegee…
KAYLA: Oh, no
SARAH: And try and un-flood the floor, that was their job
KAYLA: Oh. They should not have built this stadium
SARAH: And BTS have a song called Swim, and so, then there were funny posts about people being like, yeah, they really took this seriously, like, panning from them on stage to the floor that has like inches of standing water in it
KAYLA: Good
SARAH: Also, there was a lot of gravel and dirt around, and some people were not wearing the appropriate shoes for the occasion, because they were like, I’m wearing my cute shoes, this is my cute concert fit, and it's like, I’m sorry, but your kitten heels with socks…
KAYLA: Yeah, not good
SARAH: In the gravel and dirt in the pouring rain is not ideal. It was supposed to be the same weather Sunday but luckily it cleared and the weather Sunday was actually delightful
KAYLA: I don't think this stadium should stay up, I think they should bulldozer it…
SARAH: Oh no, it's garbage
KAYLA: It seems like a safety hazard for all
SARAH: Everyone has always known that it is garbage. I guess they're like doing some renovations on it, they're changing some stuff soon
KAYLA: Sure
SARAH: It's not a real fucking stadium. My other beef is a collection of things about getting our tickets to the Saturday show
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: My mother, my dear mother, we were going to buy last minute tickets for the Saturday show when prices went down. I was showing my mother the resale sites and she was like, I will pay for these tickets, and I said, okay, thank you, great. And she's looking at them, and I’m getting ready for bed, and she's putting in the stuff, and she's… whatever. And she's like, I got some. And I was like, oh, cool, great. And then sent them to the thing and then I’m looking at them… they are for Sunday
KAYLA: Wrong!
SARAH: We already have tickets to see BTS on Sunday
KAYLA: Mm, that’s tough
SARAH: And my mom spent too much money on these tickets
KAYLA: Oh, no
SARAH: So, now we have to resell the tickets, which we are definitely going to lose money on
KAYLA: Yeah
[01:00:00]
SARAH: And still acquire tickets for Saturday. So, I go on Twitter, I have both bought and sold tickets on Twitter before and had it be totally legit. So, I’m like, okay, I know what to look for, I won't tell you the whole story because it will take 15 minutes, I just want you to know that I am a dum, dum who did get scammed, but they were… they are both really smart, because it was like an account that they have been using for 4 years. So, like, it looked legit. Like, she was asking the right questions
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: So, I was like, I kind of understand why I got scammed a little bit from that and also it was 2 A.M and I was really stressed because my mom had bought tickets for the wrong date and then we had to… and it was the night before the show, I was very stressed. Anyway, we got scammed by this bitch Sierra and her ‘cousin’ Rita. Also, it meant I was deeply anxious all of Saturday and I kept checking my heart rate on my watch and I was like 120
KAYLA: Oh my God! The amount of information that Sarah and now I know about Sierra and Rita…
SARAH: Sierra and Rita can run, they can block me, they cannot fucking hide. Okay? I guess, I don't know Sierra's home address; I know her previous home address and maybe where she lives now but I’m not convinced. I know Rita's home address. I know when she bought her home. I know when she registered to vote as a Republican. I know her children’s names, her children's social medias. I know her husband's name and his social media. I know her sister's name and her sister's job; she works at a university. I know where Rita lived up until January when she bought this new house, it was in a different state. I know where she worked previously, it was for a school district. Today, I got more information about Sienna… did I say Sierra earlier? It’s Sienna.
KAYLA: Oh, I don’t know
SARAH: By going under… because Sienna is continuing to scam people, I've been talking to another person who she scammed. And she is continuing to try and scam people about tickets for now the Chicago date. So, I went on my other account, I changed my name so that it wasn't Sarah and I messaged her being like, hey, I’m interested in this. And then I was trying to get as much information out of her as possible. In doing so, I found out everything about her, because she sent me her ID
KAYLA: Oh, you dumb bitch!
SARAH: And so, I found her everywhere. I found her resume! Unfortunately, I can't figure out who currently employs her, I know who her previous employer was
KAYLA: That is so sad, because I would love for you to call them
SARAH: I know. It's possible she doesn't have a current employer and that she just scams people
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Because she also said stuff to me that directly contradicts things that I could find on her Instagram
KAYLA: Mm
SARAH: And when the first payment option, uh-oh, it didn't work, I couldn't get it to work, it says I need a phone number, can you give me the phone number? She was like… uh-oh, she was like… and then she was like, do you live near a Walmart? Like, maybe you could just get Apple gift cards and I was like, aren't you fucking stupid!?
KAYLA: Oh my God! Oh my god!
SARAH: So, then I was like… I ignored that entirely. And then I was just like, do you have Venmo or a PayPal? And then who's Venmo did she give me? Rita’s
KAYLA: Rita! You dumb bitch, oh, what about a gift card? Yeah, right.
SARAH: And then she offered to send me her ID…
KAYLA: And you said, okay
SARAH: And you said, yeah. Because she offered it the first time but I was like, oh, of course if she's offering this, she can't be scamming me. So, I was like, no, no, no it's fine
KAYLA: Why is she offering…
SARAH: And also, this time she sent me the proof, because when you buy tickets on Twitter, you have to send them the proof, it's a screen recording showing that you have the tickets in your Ticketmaster
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And you usually watermark it with your art so that no one else steals it
KAYLA: Sure
SARAH: She had sent me one that was not watermarked and I almost asked, I almost was like, can you send me one that's watermarked or that says something specific about me so I know that you have this and you didn't just get it from someone else. Because I realized afterwards that the time on the video that you could see on the screen recording was not the time that it was, so like she could have just done it earlier to show someone else
KAYLA: Sure
SARAH: But I was like, no, whatever, it's fine, I’m done. But the second time when I was pretending to want this Chicago ticket, she sent me a screen recording that did show my chat with her, like, she definitely does have a ticket
KAYLA: Huh! So, she just finds one ticket but selling it to like 10 different people?
SARAH: I don't know. But it made me feel better because I was like, okay, if she had sent me that, I would have been fooled by that, like that seemed totally legit.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But, yeah, TL;DR, I know pretty much everything about both of them and I will be interfacing with the relevant police departments in the places that they live. I also reached out to a county clerk about whether I can… a county clerk around where they are, they both live in the same state, they live in different parts of that state but they live in the same state. And asking like, hey, if I file in small claims court, do I, the plaintiff, have to be physically there or can I attend virtually?
KAYLA: Road trip!
SARAH: Because I am not going across the country to attend a small claims court
KAYLA: I don't know…
SARAH: It would cost me more money than I lost
KAYLA: Yeah, but the principle, the principle of the thing
SARAH: Also, I only got scammed out of the price of one ticket, because I got suspicious and I was like, hey, can you… I'll send you money for one, can you send me the one then I'll send you money for the other?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: So, I only paid them for one ticket because I started getting suspicious. And they were like, well, sorry, my cousin is… she’s on the night shift, so, like, she can't check… anyway, sorry, I won't get into more details because it will take even more minutes than it already has. Anyway, I would just like Sienna and Rita to know, I will never leave you alone until I get my money back. Do you understand? I will Venmo-request you and PayPal-invoice you every day
KAYLA: Have you been doing that?
SARAH: Uh-huh. I will reach out to your family on social media, I haven't done it yet, but I will. I am being so generous, really
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I am going to annoy these bitches into giving me my money back
KAYLA: Why would she send her ID!?
SARAH: She volunteered to do it and then she sent a picture, a selfie of herself holding the ID so I know it's her
KAYLA: Why would you do that!?
SARAH: And like she had like blurred out her address on the ID and like her birthday
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: But from her social media I was able to figure out when her birthday was
KAYLA: That is absolutely insane
SARAH: I’m still a little iffy on her current address, but…
KAYLA: You guys, don't send people on the internet your ID
SARAH: Anyway, Rita and Sienna, I hope you have a bad day. Sienna, you're going to see Noah Kahan soon in Seattle. Which is interesting because you told me that you couldn't go see BTS in Chicago because you got a back injury and your cousin said that like you probably shouldn't be traveling because like you're still not doing well. But that's interesting because according to your Instagram you're going to see Noah Kahan, you're leaving tomorrow
KAYLA: Noah Kahan would hate you
SARAH: I hope you got scammed out of Noah Kahan tickets. She has already seen him too. Anyway…
KAYLA: He would not like her
SARAH: Sienna and Rita, I’m coming for you. Also, Rita is a white woman who sometimes wears like braids
KAYLA: Oh no, Rita
SARAH: Not like a braid, like braids
KAYLA: Braids. No, Rita, no, no
SARAH: Hello, this is a very important update from Sarah from the future, which is that Sienna has been cleared of all charges. Sienna is now actually helping me to conspire against Rita. Sienna was herself scammed a couple of years ago and had her ID stolen and she told me that it has been haunting her ever since because every couple of weeks or months she gets DMs from people being like, hey, are you selling a concert ticket and she's like, no, I’m not, it's not me. Anyway, Sienna is innocent, she made a dumb mistake as I did. But honestly, the scammer is pretty good, they sent an ID to her first to be like, oh, no, it's okay, here's my ID, but that ID was stolen, as it turns out. Anyway. Sienna is cleared of all charges. Sienna has put me in contact with some other victims. I hope she enjoys the Noah Kahan concert, Noah Kahan does not hate her and I do not hope that her tickets are scam tickets. Oh my God, I almost forgot to tell you, Sienna actually Venmoed me some money. Like, she felt so bad that she sent me money and she did not have to do that, so Sienna is innocent and kind. So, we are focusing our attention to my girl Rita. I have spoken to various officials and have prepared a printed four-page explanation of what happened as well as 26 printed pages worth of screenshots each with 2-3 screenshots on each page, very kindly organized, so that the police have no excuse not to do something. Fuck the police, but fuck Rita more, she has clearly been scamming a lot of people over the years and it needs to stop. So, I’m coming for you Rita. You can't stop me! If you would like to help me or… no, I’m not going to say their names here, because I’m generous
KAYLA: So nice of you
SARAH: I’m extremely generous. But if you're really good at finding stuff about people online or you have access to one of those things where like you can get their criminal records and stuff and like more information, because I’m not paying for that shit
KAYLA: Hold on, actually. Could you send me their names? Because I work with some lawyers who really like searching things on the internet
SARAH: Yeah. I will send you their names. And I will send you all of the names that they have possibly been known by
KAYLA: Perfect
SARAH: And their husbands’ names, and their ex-husbands’ names
KAYLA: I have some co-workers who love to procrastinate and search people on the internet
SARAH: And their children's names. Anyway. So, if you want to help me with that or sing a song, you can do that on our social media @soundsfakepod. We also have a Patreon, patreon.com/soundsfakepod if you would like to fund my efforts to get back at Rita
KAYLA: Fund Sarah's lawyer
SARAH: Fund my revenge. Listen, I am a very nice, polite, midwestern person, but I will never leave you alone. I was way nicer to both of you than I should have been to start
KAYLA: And now we know
SARAH: And now I’m going to get you. You can tell us about your beef, your juice, whatever, on our social media @soundsfakepod. We also have a Patreon, patreon.com/soundsfakepod if you would like to help support my efforts. Our $5 patrons who we are promoting this week are Phoenix Eliot, Rachel, Rebekah Monnin, Rick Turpin, and someone who has requested no shout out, so you'll never know who they are, ooh, mysterious. Our $10 patrons who are promoting something this week are Eric who would like to promote Queer ASL, my aunt Jeannie who would like to promote Christopher's Haven, Johanna who would like to promote being kind to one another; which Sienna and Rita are not doing. Kayla's dad, who would like to promote JandiCreations.com. And Maff, who would like to promote the Don't Should Sweatshirt. Now, you know what would be a reasonable sweatshirt? Is a sweatshirt that says, ‘You Should Not Scam People.’ Our other $10 patrons are Martin Chiesl, Purple Hayes, Quartertone, Barefoot Backpacker, SongOStorm, Sydney Price, Val, Alastor, Ani, Arcnes, Benjamin Ybbara, Clare Olsen, Danielle Hutchinson, Derick & Carissa, and Elle Bitter. It's just crazy because they were so convincing because like, obviously they're real people. I looked up Rita before I paid her. To be like, is this a real person? And she is a real person.
KAYLA: They're very bad at scamming.
SARAH: They're both very good at scamming and very bad at scamming at the same time.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Anyway. And like, I feel stupid for calling for it, but then also...
KAYLA: But it sounds like they did all the right things. Like, how would you… how were you supposed to know? That's the thing is because…
SARAH: Also, it was 2 in the morning and I was stressed and it was like… and that's how they get you.
KAYLA: Yeah. Because they were so… because they're so bad at scamming in that they're being their authentic selves and sharing so much information, it makes them good scammers because they're completely believable because they're acting normal.
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: So, what are you supposed to do?
SARAH: And she has given a couple of other names of ‘cousins’ for accounts, neither of which I can find. They don't seem to be real. So, like the other person I've been talking to… I never got to Rita. But now that I know who Sienna is, I told the other person who Sienna is and they now have all that information and are adding it to the police report they have filed with the Toronto Metropolitan Police.
KAYLA: Huh! Let's go!
SARAH: For the record, I did update that person about Sienna and they have taken that part out of their police report. As a reminder; Sienna is innocent! Now, our $15 patrons are Ace who would like to promote the writer Crystal Scherer. Nathaniel White who would like to promote NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com. Kayla's aunt Nina who would like to promote katemaggartart.com. And Schnell who would like to promote accepting that everyone is different and that's awesome. Our $20 patrons are Changeling & Alex who would like to promote their company Control Alt Access (dot com). And Dr. Jacki, Dragonfly, my mom and River. My mom wanted to promote something, I think it was maybe about my knees. Going to the doctor?
KAYLA: Probably to go to the doctor.
SARAH: She asked me specifically to promote something and I just don't remember what it was.
KAYLA: Wow!
SARAH: And it wasn't in writing, so there's no way to know.
KAYLA: No way to know.
SARAH: So, she's promoting whatever she wanted to promote that I don't remember. Thanks… she can tell me, she'll be here next week. Thanks for listening, tune in next Sunday for more of us… Nope, not next Sunday
KAYLA: Not next Sunday
SARAH: The Sunday after that.
KAYLA: The Sunday after that. This week is spent hunting down Sienna and Rita. We cannot record; we are on the hunt.
SARAH: We are on a mission. And of course, I had to do all these things before confronting them in any way because I need all the information in case they delete their accounts or block me.
KAYLA: What are you going to do?
SARAH: Which Sienna blocked me on Twitter days ago, as soon as I was like, hey, you scammed me; blocked! Anyway. Tune in the next Sunday after the next one, for more of us in your ears
KAYLA: And until then, take good care of your cows
SARAH: I should have just told the whole story; it took 15 minutes anyway.
[END OF TRANSCRIPT]