Ep 374: Aromantic Art feat. Zachary Trebellas
SARAH: Hey, what's up? Hello! Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl (I'm Sarah, that's me.)
KAYLA: And a bi-demisexual girl, (that's me, Kayla.)
ZACHARY: And an aro fine artist, (that's me, Zachary Trebellas.)
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand.
KAYLA: On today's episode: Aro Art.
BOTH: Sounds fake, but okay.
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod!
KAYLA: Hello!
SARAH: Hello, everyone. We are joined this week by a guest, so we're just going to dive straight in. And we're celebrating Aro Week, it is Aro Week, everyone. We remembered, and by we remembered, we mean Zachary reached out to us and it happened to coincide.
KAYLA: It's completely because of Zachary, if it had not been for Zachary, this would not have happened.
ZACHARY: Great, great.
SARAH: So, Zachary, please tell us a little bit about yourself.
ZACHARY: Sure, yeah. I'm an artist. I'm originally from Chicagoland, and now I live in the western part of Michigan in a city… Grand Rapids. And I'm here because I am having an aro solo show next month, or actually at the time of recording, I'm having an aro solo show this week at Grand Valley State University. And as far as I can figure out in my research, at least when I search on Google and I search ‘aromantic art show,’ or ‘aro art show,’ there are no results. So, I thought, wow, I should have one. So, yeah, I love art and I teach art and I studied it in school and it's cool to finally like apply some of that knowledge and that passion to this subject matter.
KAYLA: Yay!
SARAH: I love that. And it is just coincidental that you live in Michigan. It's not like we're another Michigan mafia thing. I feel like we're always like, “oh my God, we have people from Michigan on the podcast.”
KAYLA: We only have people from Michigan on the podcast.
ZACHARY: Yeah, it's a total coincidence. I moved here 11 years ago and I love it.
KAYLA: When I was telling Sarah, I was like, oh, we got this email from this person named Zachary and they have an aro art show or whatever and I was like, it said GVSU. And Sarah was like, like Grand Valley State? Like Michigan? And I was like, yeah, Michigan, yes.
SARAH: Ah, exciting. So, if you are in the area, if you're on the west side of the state in Michigan, or if you're anywhere in Michigan or anywhere at all and feel like making a fun little trip to see an aro art exhibit, please do, it is this week.
ZACHARY: Yeah. I always tell people because it's a college building, it is open something like 19 hours a day, you could go at like 7:30 in the morning, you could go at 11:30 at night, the building is open.
KAYLA: Yeah, that’s so fun.
ZACHARY: So yeah, the hours are really easy. And it is at the Calder Art Center on the Grand Valley State campus.
SARAH: Delightful.
KAYLA: I'll also put in the… like in the description of this episode, I'll put the link to the info.
ZACHARY: Oh, sweet.
KAYLA: Because it's also… a lot of it is online as well, the show, right?
ZACHARY: I did put a lot online recently. Yeah. Everything that I kind of have, yeah. I mean, the things that are online will take a more like physical shape in the show, but you can get a feeling for them pretty easily, yeah.
SARAH: So still go if you can, but…
KAYLA: Yes, you must go if you can. But for those of us, like Sarah and I, who are far away, I’ll look online.
ZACHARY: Yeah. And I'll put photos up after the show of like what it all looked like together, so.
SARAH: Exciting.
KAYLA: Yeah, I'm excited to see it. Well, shall we start? I guess before we dive back into art, just kind of talking about your identity a little bit.
ZACHARY: Sure, yeah.
KAYLA: We had talked on the show. I guess it was not recently, but maybe one of the last guests we've had, the folks from AUREA, who… the Aromantic… Oh, I'm not going to know the acronym.
SARAH: I have the book pulled up right in front of me.
KAYLA: Aromantic…
ZACHARY: Is it E-Education?
KAYLA: It must be.
SARAH: Aromantic-spectrum Union for Recognition, Education, and Advocacy.
KAYLA: Union is the word; I couldn’t get it. Anyway, we had some lovely folks from AUREA on a couple of months ago, and we were talking about how we don't have a lot of aro guests on the show, most of our guests are… if they are aro, also ace or just like only ace, not aro. So, I'm interested to learn just kind of like what your identity is, first of all, and then kind of how you came to the aro community.
ZACHARY: Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think it's interesting because we have a lot of terms in the aro community, and it's like, how specific does anyone choose to get? So, like I like aro because I feel like it's broad and it captures a lot of people's kind of experiences in the broad way. So that's what I would normally of course use. But I think if we drill down into terms like people would know in the community, I feel like gray romantic definitely makes sense to me, like demiromantic, that makes sense to me too. And some of the quaromantic confusion between friendship, what is friendship, what is romance, like that confusion, connect with that. So yeah, the gray romantic of it, kind of feeling romantic attraction here and there, or feeling like romantic feelings here and there, but they're kind of weak or unstable or unpredictable or confusing, like that gray really makes sense to me. The demi, having a slowness to feel things has made sense to me at times. And I think the term that I don't see used a lot in the aro community and surprises me is ‘single at heart.’
KAYLA: Oh, interesting
ZACHARY: Which comes from Bella DePaulo's writings. I kind of feel like there's two parallel communities that do not talk to each other, and there's the ‘single at heart’ over here, which is smaller, and kind of wrapped around the research of Bella DePaulo in her books. And then there's the aro community and it's like bizarre to me how they don't… because even some of the art pieces in the show, I sent out a Google form looking for aro experiences to Reddit and Arocalypse, like aro forums. But I just tweaked it a little bit and I sent it to the ‘single at heart’ people and it's really like you get the same answers. But yeah, I think that identity has always made a lot of, maybe the most sense to me actually is that term.
KAYLA: Because I don't know if I've heard that term before.
SARAH: I haven't either, I’m googling it immediately
KAYLA: Or if I have, I don't…
ZACHARY: And that was sort of my intro. I almost think I identify as aro because it's just a bigger community and term, but it's just because it is bigger, if ‘single at heart’ were more mainstream or bigger, I'd probably use that more.
KAYLA: Yeah. Could you explain what the term is and kind of like the research it comes from?
ZACHARY: Yeah. So, it comes out of this researcher, there's a field of study that's pretty small called ‘Singles Studies.’ And people that study like single life and people look at all sorts of topics like singlism kind of like discrimination or just different, there's a lot you can explore. And so, there's a psychological researcher named Bella DePaulo, she has a very viral Ted Talk from about 10 years ago on this topic, which is how I found her. And ‘single at heart’ is her term, but it's just people who feel like their most authentic selves are when they are single.
KAYLA: Interesting
ZACHARY: So, it has so much crossover with aro, but I feel like where like aromantic identities tend to focus more on like romantic attraction, like she focuses more on like single kind of like…
SARAH: Singledom.
ZACHARY: Like singledom. Yeah. So, there's a big Venn diagram, but they're not exactly the same
SARAH: Right. And I could imagine someone who still experiences… who is alloromantic still feeling connected to the ‘single at heart’ thing, where it's like, I don't like who I am when I'm in a relationship as much as I like who I am when I'm…
ZACHARY: Yeah. And it's very interesting because like they do not identify as queer, but there's so much overlap with aro, which is inside of like queer thinking. So, like that is fascinating to me too.
KAYLA: That is very… I would think that the kind of lens that you look through the world with if you're ‘single at heart’ would be a very queer way to look at life.
ZACHARY: Yeah, absolutely
KAYLA: Like that feels like you're kind of queering your relationship so that's really interesting.
ZACHARY: Yeah. We have a term for that I see sometimes in aro circles, which is orchidromantic. And whenever I see orchidromantic, I just… whenever I'm online, I'm commenting, I'm like, there's already a term, there's already research about it, it’s like we don’t need another term
KAYLA: There's already people… yeah
ZACHARY: Yeah. It's pretty similar to like nonamorous is another one that gets thrown around in the aro circles, there's a lot of… those are almost the same.
KAYLA: Yeah. So interesting.
ZACHARY: But I think like when I've been like… to me, like figuring out you’re aro, it's like very confusing. And when I really drill down, I'm like, okay, Zachary, what is the core of it for you? And it's that I feel like I don't have like… the easiest part for me to understand that I don't have like a relationship drive or like a romantic drive is how I think about it. Like I might be attracted to people sexually or like… most common sexually or romantically, but that doesn't actually mean I want to form a relationship with them, because the idea of forming a relationship doesn't naturally appeal to me. Like I don't have any push in that direction. And I've been in relationships and like they can be like… and I'm in one now and they can be really nice, but I'm never, I'm not like… I almost have to fall into it, I'm not like pulled into it, I'm not like seeking it.
SARAH: You're not on the dating scene.
ZACHARY: Right, right, right, yeah. So that is like a big game changer versus like how the world actually works. Like, you know, like people don't get that. And so, yeah.
SARAH: Yeah. What was your first exposure to the aro umbrella? Because I feel like you talk to so many people who are in the broader aspec community and they come to aromanticism through asexuality, so I'm curious what your journey was with that.
[00:10:00]
ZACHARY: Yeah. I feel it was… probably the first things I was reading were like… at one point before I knew anything, it was like, I was in the single at heart space and I think I got in through poly, actually. And it's interesting because I've never really been poly, I'm more like theoretical... Like I'm like, that is, you know, this relationship I'm in, and relationships before, like I've been like, this has to be an open relationship, that's the only way I'll do it, that's always like a baseline that I set. But yeah, I think that that's where I started to find myself because I felt like if the mainstream was like one person wants one person, then poly people were like, well, we're not looking for one, we're looking for like two or three, like more than one. And I was like, oh, well, I want like 0.5.
KAYLA: Yeah, like want…
ZACHARY: They wanted more and I wanted less, it actually made a lot of sense to me, like I have some close poly friends and like we connected so much better than people that were like totally allo mainstream because we were both...
SARAH: Monogamous, yeah.
ZACHARY: So, it was poly and then I kind of just… you know, I started reading like ‘Getting Off the Relationship Escalator,’ which was like an eye-opening book for me.
KAYLA: Yeah, I love that book.
ZACHARY: Relationship anarchy made a lot of sense to me. So, it was really through, there's no word for this, but in my mind to call it like alternative relationships, like, you know, so like solo poly made a lot of sense to me, but I kept being like solo poly, but I just actually want the solo.
KAYLA: The solo part
ZACHARY: Yeah. And there's a whole podcast and whole movement around solo as an identity too, which has overlapped. So, it was like that, what I call like alternative relationship world that got me in. And aro like didn't work for me for a while until I found this like focus on friendship that I find in the aro community, and I was like, oh, I connect with that, like immediately. Like I'm like kind of really interested in friendship and so that's where I was like, I think aro is trying to make sense to me, yeah.
SARAH: Yeah. Was there any overlap at all with like figuring out like, oh, this is my sexuality and thinking like, oh, maybe there's something else going on with my romantic identity? Or was it just completely like, they were completely separate in your experience?
ZACHARY: Yeah, that's a good question, I think they are related. I mean, I came out really early, like I discovered I was gay when I was 15, I came out when I was 15, like I was out in high school by the time I was a junior. And I have a twin brother who is gay and he came out like three years later.
KAYLA: Oh my God!
ZACHARY: And my best friend is gay; he came out three years later. And I'm like, oh, it was like all of us? But I didn't know. Like no one told me about you guys.
SARAH: Yeah, you flocked together.
ZACHARY: Right. Yeah. And so, the gay thing was just… for a while it felt like, okay, yeah, I get it. But I think the older I got by the time I was like in college and then out of college, I was like, oh, I don't think I'm like other gay men, like I'm kind of realizing this. And I think the first time I ever had a feeling towards where I am now is I was like 22, I was living in Chicago. I was talking to… I was like out at like an art walk with my friend, Jeremy, who is also gay. I'm like, yeah, I'm kind of getting like disinterested in like the dating game. I wasn't really deep into it, but I was like… and I'm old enough, like we didn't have like dating apps, it was just like, you had to like go meet people and it's like that takes a lot of work, especially when you're gay, like, you do not bump into them, you know?
SARAH: Right.
ZACHARY: Unless you like go to, you know, Boystown in Chicago.
SARAH: You have to seek them out, yeah
ZACHARY: Yeah. And so, I remember talking to him like, yeah, I'm writing about art, I'm making art. Like, is it okay that my life could just be like these art projects? Like that feels like… I feel great, that feels enough. And he was like, “no, Zach, you can't do that.”
KAYLA: Nooo!
ZACHARY: Like that's not healthy, you can't ignore that, you know. But that was the first time I remember like kind of saying out loud, like I had no idea where that was going to lead me, but I was just like, oh, why do I feel fine? Why do I already feel fine?
SARAH: Yeah. That's so interesting to me, because… I mean, this is not what we're talking about so I'm not going to dive too much into this, and also, you're only one person, so you can't speak to everything.
ZACHARY: Right.
SARAH: But like, it makes me so curious about how that experience differs based on gender because if you're like in gay spaces, I feel like… I've been talking to a gay friend of mine, who's like in the dating scene, the gay dating scene in LA.
KAYLA: He is in the thick of it.
SARAH: He is in the thick of it.
KAYLA: Poor man!
SARAH: And so, the things that he tells me, I'm like these… a lot of it seems very sexualized. And so, it's like, I wonder how that would differ if you had a different identity and the culture was different. Like, would you have figured it out sooner? Would it not have mattered? Obviously, you can't answer that but I'm just… it's interesting to think about.
ZACHARY: Yeah. I think there's this concept that I really like that is queer time and it's like the idea like queer people, of course, like you just experience things more slowly, or we have these like, we don't hit these like big milestones at the same time, because it's like the conditions are different. And so, I think if… I think my being gay has like really slowed down me figuring things out because I just… I did have to learn things, I had to learn out through dating people and that was just slow. I mean, I was going on like two dates a year, it was just a slow process to figure out, like, why am I not interested in this? Like, is it just because I don't have enough options? Like, there are so few… you know, it's like, am I not very often attracted to people? Or there are just very few options? Like, that was like…
SARAH: Or does everyone here just suck? Like, I don't know.
ZACHARY: Yeah, it’s like… it's funny. I mean, I tell the person I'm with now, I'm just like, oh, yeah, I never… whenever we started dating, I told my roommate, actually, I'm like, I've never dated anyone that I've liked before. And he's like, what do you mean? Like, then why did you date them? I was like, because they liked me.
SARAH: It just seemed like the thing to do.
KAYLA: Yeah, isn't that what you're supposed to do then?
ZACHARY: I thought I would like them eventually and then I just like never did. So, I'm just like, leaving these like kind of like broken…
KAYLA: It's such an aro thing I feel. I hear that so many times of like, I don't know, it just seemed like the thing to be doing.
ZACHARY: Right, I just felt like there's so much like inertia in that direction, where you're like, well, I'm just going to date, like, that's what I'm supposed to do. And then of course, people start liking you and then you're like, oh, I got to get out of this.
KAYLA: I know, I know. I find that I'm too delightful and likable, what am I to do?
SARAH: I'm too hot and likable and charming.
ZACHARY: Yeah. I'm like, why am I so stressed all the time? Yeah.
SARAH: I don't envy that, I'll be quite honest. That is the one big perk for me about being aro and ace and just not interested in that world, I'm just like, ugh, keep it away.
KAYLA: Yeah, it seems crazy in there.
ZACHARY: Yeah.
KAYLA: Have you found that your gender kind of makes your experience different in any way? I think we so often see the statistics in ace and aro spaces that it's most often women that are out as being or especially non-binary people, like huge chunks of women and non-binary people, very low percentages of men, have you found that to like… have you like had trouble finding other men in community or just like changes your experience at all?
ZACHARY: Yeah, that's a mystery to me too, because I've seen those statistics that I'm like, where are they?
KAYLA: I'm here, I swear.
ZACHARY: I think about like the one aro-ace person that I know, like, it has been weird because I just found them in my life because of course they exist. And so like, I used to teach English in Japan and there was like, you know, it's an island of like 12 different English teachers and like another one, she's aro-ace, so we had a great phone call once, like years later, because like, we didn't know this island was… it was like turning out to be so queer, but we just didn't know, like so much later, I wish we had known, but… and then I think of one other person in my life and like… and there is a guy, there's another gay guy that I know and he's very much like, I would say single at heart, I think is really his, but probably aro as well. I know allosexual for sure with him, but like, yeah, so it does feel like in my mind, I'm like, well, I know two people and there's one of each and then I look at the numbers and like, oh, it's not…
KAYLA: Yeah
ZACHARY: I don't know, to me, that's just mysterious, I don't think I have any insights why that is the way it is. Because I assume it's probably just as common, but probably a societal thing.
SARAH: It's a cultural… Our expectations of men are different and yada yada.
ZACHARY: Yeah. Yeah.
KAYLA: Yeah. I feel like thinking back, especially to college, there are several men I can think of that now I'm like, oh, you were aro, but like in college, it was just normal to be like having sex with a lot of random people and like not forming romantic connections, that's just what you did. So, I was like, well, of course they wouldn't have questioned it at the time because that's what they were supposed to be doing as young men in college.
SARAH: Now I want to know who those people are
KAYLA: I’ll tell you later
SARAH: Tell me later
ZACHARY: It's an identity that's like hard to detect.
KAYLA: Yeah
ZACHARY: With being gay, it's like, okay, how are they dressing? How are they talking? Like, there's all these cues, but with being aro, it's almost like we have to develop this new kind of radar that we're not used to having, yeah.
SARAH: Like, I'm clocked as queer all the time by other queer people.
KAYLA: I mean, look at you.
SARAH: Not necessarily by… well, right now, I mean, I'm wearing an alpha male shirt with raccoons on it
KAYLA: I guess, I’m just…
SARAH: But like straight people, I don't know what they see. But like other queer people will clock me as queer pretty easily, but it's like, I don't… there's no way for them to know what kind of queer I am.
ZACHARY: Yeah. It depends, yeah
SARAH: So, it's like, I still have to kind of like tell them.
KAYLA: Well, we know straight people aren't clocking it right because that one man kept coming up to you in the gym, he didn't know what he was doing.
SARAH: That's true. And I did look like a little boy.
KAYLA: You did.
ZACHARY: I mean, it's the queers that like we've developed, like… just out of necessity, we're like looking for things that we're just not.
[00:20:00]
KAYLA: The survival instinct, like, where are my people?
SARAH: Yeah. The only other time that I've been like approached by a man recently was when I was in my like most straight white woman cosplay. Like I was like, oh, I do look like a straight woman right now. Okay, I can see.
KAYLA: I can see how you would come to this
SARAH: He gave me a weird compliment and then walked away, it was so strange.
KAYLA: I mean…
SARAH: Anyway. Do we want to dive into the art installation a little bit?
KAYLA: Yeah, well, this is kind of like a bridge from something you said earlier talking about friendship and that is… so, Sarah and I looked at the pieces you had on your website so we can only go off that obviously, we're sadly not able to go in person, but a couple of your pieces that you had online had themes of friendship. And so, I was just wondering about kind of what you said already about your interests and your love for friendship and then how that kind of made its way into your work.
ZACHARY: Sure. Yeah. I mean, I heard a really good quote from… I forget the name, but there's like an… I think he's like an aro-ace writer and he has some kind of like online magazine that I was like getting into at one point recently, I know I like need to find this again. But he had written a poem about… that suggested that being like aro and/or ace, I guess aspec it's like being a vacuum and you know, nature abhors a vacuum, like something will fill a hole, like we don't have something missing because something will fill the thing that we do not have.
KAYLA: Ooh.
ZACHARY: So, to me I think about friendship in that way where I'm like, yeah, it becomes so much more important. And so, I think it's like, to me, I think that like, aro people have a really important like role to play right now because there's all these articles about like, I know you had like Rhaina Cohen on your podcast and I listened to that one and I read her book about friend radical friendship and like there's all these articles right now about like a friendship recession or friendship decline or people spending less time with their friends. So, I think about like, you know, aro people have something to offer the mainstream, it is like, listen, we got to remember how important a special friendship is and really put a focus on it because I think that's what a lot of us are naturally doing. So, I wanted to bring that into the exhibition because I wanted the exhibition to ultimately feel positive. And I was like, well, friendship is the most positive thing from my perspective that we have. So, like, I better make art about it, you know? And kind of give people a wakeup call too, that like friendship is so crucial and important, which is crazy anyone could forget that.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Yeah
ZACHARY: But yeah, I think about a friend of mine who didn't really like value her friendships or like, let them go or had some awkwardness around them. And you know, she told me she was like, Zachary meeting you and seeing how much you value friendship. And also, she married a man from France and there's just a different, like a much stronger emphasis on friendship in French culture, at least in his life. She's like, the two of you really showed me how important friendship can be. And now she has more friends, and she does more with friends and because… and I'm like, cool, that on one part is like a positive aro influence
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Yeah
ZACHARY: So, I definitely wanted to make work about it. I think the one piece like on the website, which one of them speaks to that is like that... It's called ‘social studies’ and it's like, I've been tracking all the interactions with my friendships for a whole year and I turn that into this really long, it looks like a receipt object. It's a spreadsheet on my computer and then I turned it into this like long, long, long… like it's going to be over 100 foot-long, kind of looking object. And my friends are like, okay, so are you making that as like, like your… you have the receipts, because someone bailed on me or cancelled on me or I cancelled on them, I like mark that on this thing. But I'm like, no, it's actually, the purpose of this is just to be… to show people like, what would it look like to put attention towards friendships? Like, what would it look like to be obsessed with friendships in a positive way, and to show that publicly, to make people think about their own. And I was talking to a colleague of mine, and she opened up her planner, and she had a version of that just naturally. She's like, oh, yeah, a chart. And it's like, how much I see my husband, how much I see my friends, blah, blah, so I can like remember to call them and see them. So, it's like… I was like, okay, people are… this is a way of like, people are on. So, I wanted to make that to be like, let's think about this more, you know?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Yeah, like you don't have to make your own receipt, but you know, just be thinking about it in your own life, yeah.
ZACHARY: Like, when did you call them? Did you make the plan? You know, yeah, because…
SARAH: Right.
KAYLA: Yeah, I know a couple of people that have that, they have like a list on their phone of like, okay, here's the people I call every week, or every other week, and they check off like, okay, yep, talk to this person every two weeks check. And I was like, I need to do that, because I am so bad at remembering to call anyone.
SARAH: I need to do that, because I am so bad at interacting with people at all, literally.
KAYLA: Has it made you think about doing this over the course of the year? Have you like learned anything about certain friendships? Or like has it made you rethink certain things about… not to like, put your friends on blast, but like…
ZACHARY: No, absolutely. I'm learning about myself and them. I mean, I operate with the assumption that like, I do a lot of the work in my friendships. I mean, I get to destroy the assumption, but the assumption is like, I'm making the plans, I'm doing the inviting, like I'm putting in the work. And actually, this has been helpful, because I've looked at it, I'm like, no, I maybe do that a little bit less than I think, and I get invited to things a little bit more than it feels.
KAYLA: Interesting
ZACHARY: So, I think it feels a little lopsided, but it's less lopsided than I thought. So, it's been kind of healthy to see that.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Because yeah, I can think of relationships of my own that I've been like, oh, man, like, I put all the work into this relationship, it doesn't feel like, you know, it's being reciprocated. So being able to see the actual data of it, yeah, that seems very helpful and healthy.
ZACHARY: It has been helpful, yeah. And just to see the friends that are like coming through more, like who, because all the… every time I'm invited by something, I use like blue for that. So like, where am I drawing the blue lines? And it has been like certain friends much more than others. Like I'm at my friend, Aaron's house right now for a movie night that's once a month. And like, Aaron is definitely one that like will follow through, like will invite, like will make a plan and so, it's been like cool to see that. And then to see the ones that are like weaker than I thought, I'm like, okay, do I want to put more work in or like, how can I like work on this one or whatever. So yeah, definitely, so, I need… definitely still learning things.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Yeah. But I mean, it's also just thinking about your platonic relationships and the way that people think about their romantic relationships.
ZACHARY: Taking them seriously, yeah.
SARAH: Yeah.
ZACHARY: I mean, I've had some friends in my life since I was five. And like, I think part of that is like, I'm committed to continuing those friendships, that's really big to me to have people throughout my whole life. And there's times when like I date people and my mom is always like asking about them, asking about them. And I'm like, why don't you ask me about these lifelong friendships that you've known since they were children. Like you're asking about someone I'm dating for three months, cool, but like, you know. So, there has been times when I'm like, my friend has cancer and my mom is like, not asking about it, you know? So.
KAYLA: Yeah
ZACHARY: Yeah, I think it's something that I wish everyone would think about more because I think about it all the time. You know?
KAYLA: Yeah. One thing I'll say about my family, everyone is always asking about Sarah. Every time I'm on the phone, they're like, oh my God, how's Sarah? All my other friends ask about Sarah, everyone wants to know about Sarah.
SARAH: I'm very popular.
ZACHARY: That’s a positive, yeah
KAYLA: Everyone is so obsessed with Sarah.
ZACHARY: Nice, that’s good.
SARAH: That makes me feel good about myself.
KAYLA: Oh, well. Does your mom asking about me? I know she does, she really loves me.
SARAH: Yeah.
ZACHARY: She's like, of course, yeah.
KAYLA: Of course, she’s asking about me, don't be silly.
SARAH: Can we talk about the name of this exhibition? So, it's called ‘Shot with a Lead Arrow,’ and that comes from a Greek myth, am I right?
ZACHARY: Yeah. So that was really fun to develop, I thought about how… I mean, I think as an artist, I think a lot about like visual symbols and like visual culture. And when I look at like the aro spaces online, I'm like, it still feels so young and I feel like it's maybe missing... it doesn't feel built out visually as a culture. It's like, you know, we've got some colors and we have like some memes and like there are some things to work with, but I was like, what would it be to try to like expand that? And so, I kind of was like researching online, I was like, kind of trying to figure out this question, like who is the opposite of Cupid? What's the opposite of Cupid? Like, let's kind of start there. And I kind of stumbled around this myth of Daphne, and I was like, this feels rich, you know? And I just went to the aro-ace student club at Grand Valley, which is called Ace of Clubs, which I love that name.
KAYLA: That’s funny
ZACHARY: And they were all into the Greek mythology. They're like, well, yes, the three virgin goddesses. And they're like rattling all these names and I was like, okay, we're all in the same wavelength.
SARAH: I feel like that's an aspec stereotype, it is like, we're all just into Greek mythology.
KAYLA: The aspecs love the Greek mythology.
ZACHARY: Yeah, I was really into it as a kid. And like my main art practice is about like Greek American life and my last name is Greek. And so, it was fun to like find a tie in. But yeah, to quickly explain. So, the myth, I think is pretty provocative. So, Cupid basically wants to get even with Apollo over being slighted. And so, you know, he's thinking like, I'm going to pull a prank. And so, he shoots a golden arrow at Apollo to make him fall in love with a nymph named Daphne. He shoots a lead in arrow, like an arrow tipped with lead at Daphne to make her like reject Apollo. And Daphne is interesting because in other myths, she already is sort of our aro-ace girl, because in other myths, she is part of the hunt of Artemis.
SARAH: Artemis, yeah.
KAYLA: Yeah.
[00:30:00]
ZACHARY: And Artemis is another like kind of virgin goddess, so told me the students.
KAYLA: The aspecs love Artemis.
ZACHARY: Yeah. And so, I'm like, okay, cool. She already has her own… she's like hanging out with her friends, she has a passion, she like is not in the world of love. And so, I thought that was like exciting already. But in the specific myth, which this myth is like, we have a full Roman story of it, there's like a full copy of it.
KAYLA: Wow
ZACHARY: It was like written down as literature, which is cool. And there's a couple versions by different authors, but it's like a complete story. But anyway, so Apollo kind of goes after her because he's madly in love with her, she's like fleeing. And then she knows he's going to catch her up with her so she needs an escape plan. And she goes to her father, who's some kind of like lesser river god and she's like, turn me into a plant, that's the only way I can escape. And so, he turns her into a laurel tree and the Greek word for laurel in Greek is Daphne. So, it's connected that way. So, he turns her into a tree. And there's a lot of art pieces of this, my major was art history so I'm like excited if I can get into that. And so, there is like a very famous sculpture by Bernini from the Renaissance of this. But there's all these sculptures of her like mid-transformation. I teach artists, I teach like Art 101 Intro to Art at Grand Valley. It's in our textbook as well.
KAYLA: Wow
ZACHARY: But yeah, she's like mid-transformation usually in these paintings and Apollo is like chasing her or catching her. And so, I was like, I need a character who is like strong. I want someone who's like aro kind of in this mythological way that has a strength. And I'm like, okay, she, A, is strong to begin with. B, she's like, I'm not going to let him get me, I have a plan I'm going to like get out of this. And so, she does.
KAYLA: She stays a tree forever? What happens to her?
ZACHARY: She does, yeah.
KAYLA: That’s crazy.
ZACHARY: And you know, it's creepy because Apollo like takes a piece of the… that's where we get like laurel crowns from, he like takes a piece of the laurel and then he's like, I'll have a piece of her close to me like no matter what.
KAYLA: Yuck! Yuck!
ZACHARY: I'm sure that was like already tradition and they kind of worked backwards of the myth, but…
SARAH: Yeah.
ZACHARY: And so, I was really trying to find an image for her for the postcard for the show. And I didn't want her looking weak, like a lot of them, she's sort of being grabbed or she's being chased. And I found this painting by Tiepolo, who's a Italian painter I really like. And I just really… her expression really spoke to me in that, like her hand is just starting to turn into a leaf really delicately, you can see like the color changing to green. And she just has this kind of at peace look on her face almost where she's like, I've made my decision. You know, there's no fear on her face and I was like, that's the image I want to use, so.
KAYLA: Yeah, I’m looking at it right now, it is so gorgeous.
SARAH: Yeah.
ZACHARY: Yeah. So, I was excited. He did a couple of the myth, but I really liked this one. So, so I just thought like, this is such a cool kind of motif and like through line for a show. And I've like pulled that myth into a couple artworks in the show. My like secret hope is that the same way that lesbians will use sapphic to mean lesbian, I was like, can we use Daphnean, which is sort of a dead adjective.
KAYLA: Ooh
ZACHARY: It's an adjective in English, but it's like outdated. But I was like, can we use Daphnean?
KAYLA: I love that. Okay. I will help spread that because I think that's like gorgeous.
SARAH: Oh my God, Daphnean, hell yeah
KAYLA: I love, I love
ZACHARY: So yeah, that came… Originally the show was going to be called No Romo.
KAYLA: A classic. A classic.
ZACHARY: And I got really into this myth so yeah
KAYLA: That could be the next show, maybe.
ZACHARY: Yeah, totally.
SARAH: Yeah, exactly.
KAYLA: I have another question. So, this kind of goes back to something you were saying earlier also about queer time. But there’s several of your pieces, including the friendship one that you already talked about, where you're kind of tracking the times spent with friends, there's also some other pieces, kind of about like the gray romantic experience that are you tracking time. So, I was wondering if that was kind of an intentional theme in the exhibit and how you think about your identities through time, if that kind of like goes back to that queer time idea you were talking about.
ZACHARY: Yeah, you know, it's interesting as an artist, because you kind of learn things about yourself through the art. Like you just make stuff because you're inspired. And then you look back and you're like, oh, I've been making a lot of that.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Yeah.
ZACHARY: And I like have a tendency towards like data visualization in my work, like making these like graphs and things. And I was like, it's just like… I guess it's just like how my brain works. Like I've never taken a stats class, I never taken math, but I just like to… you know, I also have those pieces that look like trading cards where people like plot their emotions out, like that's another like way of showing data. So, the timepieces just came out kind of unplanned. But I think that I want to try to get people into like the intimacy of like, at least my aro experience and that just seemed like something that felt really intimate is like, how am I feeling day to day? How's that changing? And one of the pieces is one of the oldest pieces that I'm putting in is kind of more of like a demi-romantic timeline of like dating someone over four months. And I think a common experience for me is like dating people and I cannot understand how they're moving so fast, you know, I'm on a third date and they're like holding hands. But in my head, I'm like, I don't even know what I'm doing, I don't know how I think about you.
KAYLA: Yeah, like I don't know
SARAH: You’re a stranger.
ZACHARY: How are you here, you know? Or dating other people and you know, they say I love you after three months and I'm just like, you know, I can't say it back. Like, I don't know why we're doing it, you know?
SARAH: Yeah
ZACHARY: So, to me, time has been such like a theme of my dating life where I'm like, like I need someone who can wait for me to slowly feel a little bit more or whatever. And that has worked with the person I’m with now, I'm just like, well, this worked because you were able to wait for me, you know? But yeah, so I feel like I'm like… I want to try to capture that experience, like get people in a little bit, you know, and I don't know if like allo people, who knows, they might really relate a lot, but I think like, how can I kind of like make the crazy things in my head visible and like understandable
KAYLA: I also think that is such a powerful visualization, because I'm thinking about like the relationship escalator, which you mentioned earlier and we've talked about it on the show a couple of times. But I think for allo people relationships just move in that upward trajectory so fast, because in your head, that's just like, you're like, oh, that's naturally what you're supposed to do, that's what society teaches us. And so, it's hard to slow down and be like, okay, why do I think that's why it should be… Did I even stop to think if that's what I want, or am I just following the path? And so, I feel like slowing down and pulling it out and like putting it down where you can see it is very…
SARAH: Being intentional about it.
KAYLA: Yeah, it's very eye-opening to like, oh, I don't actually have to do anything this way, this is how it's just assumed that you go about it.
ZACHARY: Yeah, and that feels so queer to me, because I feel like, for me, like being… when I ask friends this…. every year during Pride, I like to ask queer friends, I'm like, what do you like most about being gay? Or what do you like most people being bi or being trans? And a lot of them come back, they say the same thing, they're like… even like, I was dating like a straight-laced like veterinarian, you know, and he was like, it's that the rules no longer apply. And that we don't… the expectations are gone. Like, that's what everyone always like says so commonly to me. And so like, we don't have rules to play by anymore and we have to like plot things out ourselves. And I feel that that was my… where I felt connected to poly people in relationships is like, they have to make their own rules, there's no rule book, you know, things are intentional, things are considered, like things are decisions. And yeah, the total like mainstream escalator of all those assumptions and like… I'm like, get me out of the mall, you know?
KAYLA: Yeah
ZACHARY: Get me out of here! So yeah, definitely relate to the idea of like, making a decision and being intentional.
SARAH: Yeah. And I think the visualization of it, I can imagine, I would be interested to hear from like alloromantics, who look at this exhibition, and like, their… like, I feel like that could help them understand, like, what it is actually like to be inside an aro-spec body and experience the world that way in a more tangible way than just being like, well, it's a little bit of this and a little bit of that, like, it feels very grounded.
ZACHARY: Yeah, I mean, I really feel like… I mean, this is just one exhibition, I want to keep showing it after this, because this is just a short show, but I want to keep showing this work. But when I think about it, I'm like, I feel like I'm introducing a type of person to a wider audience. Like, I'm showing them a new goal, like human diversity, that the three of us know so well, but the mainstream, it is like, they kind of have no idea, you know?
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: You know what it reminds me a lot of Sarah? It is when Sarah and I were in college, we lived together with a couple of friends, and we had something called the dating spectrum in our house. And it was this physical, like spectrum of what, like zero to six, that we wrote out. And we used it to like… it was just like a silly thing of tracking who in our house was like dating people. And we had it from like, talking stage to like, you're a thing to like exclusive to like all the way dating. And we just used it as like a silly thing to move across and if someone broke up, we'd like often burn it in a fire.
SARAH: Burn it, yeah
KAYLA: But it's funny, because thinking back to when we were making it, we had to have like a real sit down and we were like, okay, what are the stages of dating people close? Of course, we're in college so it's like dating isn't real, people are like in talking stages, and their situationships, you know, it's just like a fucking joke. But it was funny, I remember it was really hard to make because we were like, what do you do when you date someone? Like, we know we do it, like, it happens. But like, what are we actually doing?
[00:40:00]
SARAH: And like, is this a separate step? Or is it a part of something else? Or like, yeah
KAYLA: Yeah, we were really trying to like label the steps of the escalator thinking back and we were just like, I don't know
ZACHARY: Things like that, I'm like, that could become an art piece. Like, that's like the root of an art piece right there, yeah.
KAYLA: It's funny, I was looking at it recently, because I'm getting married next year. And I was putting together our like timeline of our relationship and the way that my fiancé like asked me to be his girlfriend was using that dating spectrum. He was like, oh, are we like a six now? Which was like officially dating. So, I was recently looking back on it, because I was thinking about the timeline of our relationship and I was like, that was so silly that that was what we used. But I was like, that's kind of useful, though, to have that like language.
SARAH: It’s clear
KAYLA: It was very clear. He was like, okay, are we a six now? Like, what are we? And I was like, yeah, that's great.
SARAH: Yeah, let's move that sticky note.
KAYLA: Let's move that sticky note, girl. Yeah. It’s so funny.
ZACHARY: I mean, I remember like, when I've first been dating people in the past, and my friends will be like, oh, a fourth date, okay, so it's serious. Like, oh, the fifth date is getting serious. And I'm like, I am not...
KAYLA: Yeah, you're like, I don't think so.
ZACHARY: Like, I am like, confused. I'm like, stressed. I'm filling stuff out, like…
KAYLA: Yeah. I felt that a lot in college, especially when dating, more around like sex than the romance. But people are like, oh, you've been talking to this person for how long? Whatever. It was just like the assumption you'd already be having sex. And I was like, just like sweating, having anxiety attack about sex. Not good times.
ZACHARY: Yeah
SARAH: I mean, to that point that you made about this exhibition kind of being an introduction of a certain type of person to the allos of the world, I was really curious about the nervous system piece, which for those listening at home, it has two figures, and then it kind of, they're like anatomical, but then it's pointing out like the differences in how they understand things. One of them is allo, one of them is aro, and just kind of like the differences in how they expect things to go with a relationship and that sort of thing. And I know, obviously, that like the aro figure cannot represent every aro person. I was gonna say, I assume it's just you.
ZACHARY: Yeah
SARAH: But to that end, like, the allo figure, like is that an amalgamation of people you've encountered? Is it based on like one or two individual people? Is it like a fictionalized generalization? Because I mean, at this point, I feel like aspecs are generalized about so often that I think it's fair if we if we generalize allospecs.
ZACHARY: Yeah, it is interesting because I had to collapse so much of that piece, and that piece is really new, I just made it in like August. And yeah, I think it's because I went to a couple of weddings this year. And so, like romance seemed really up the forefront and I was like experiencing how people talked about… the guests talked about the wedding, you know, that it was talked about before and during and like watching people cry at the wedding, and just feeling like no tears were… like, part of that piece is like, you know, like allo people are like crying at weddings and allo people are like dry-eyed at weddings. And that's just me, obviously. But like, yeah, so I felt like those things are really… I was observing a lot, like, and I hadn't been to a wedding in a while. And so, I was like, oh, yeah, romance is like so strong in this space. So yeah, it's really just thinking about a lot of different allo people and kind of trying to create these like parallels between allo and aro experience. And yeah, it's interesting, because I like sat… so that piece, I haven't posted on Tumblr in like two years. And I have an art Tumblr, but I like don't… I just I mostly just put things on my like my website, you know, and I was like, oh, I’ll put this on here and it like went viral, which is crazy.
KAYLA: Wow
ZACHARY: It went viral. And it was getting to like 400 reshares or something.
KAYLA: Aww, popular!
ZACHARY: I know. And then like… and all the comments were really nice and then there were, of course, a couple like negative comments. And I got like scared. And I'm like, I hate this. And I like took it down.
KAYLA: Noooo!
ZACHARY: It's still out there, but it's just not like linked to me anymore. But I was like… and I was like, because people were kind of getting at like, well, I don't feel this way. I don't feel this way. And of course, this is like… that's just based off my… the aro part is based off of me and the allo part is based on what I see. So, I sat down with a close poly friend of mine and I was like, I just want to talk through this because like you have a wife and kids, but also you’re poly and like, I'm just trying to like think about is this, you know, like, is this fair to even make this? Can this piece even work? And he was like, it's art, you can be provocative. And it's art, you can be personal, you know, he's not even an artist and he was like really speaking well about this. And I was like, okay, yeah, cool, I'm just going to like actually just be… I'll make this piece, you know, and yeah, if people go to an art show, my name is on it. It's about, you know, it came out of me.
SARAH: Right.
ZACHARY: I'm not like making… I think it's because it looks like a scientific document.
SARAH: Right.
ZACHARY: It's like I'm not like writing a scientific textbook or something.
SARAH: Right. Exactly. Do you feel any pressure to kind of be like the representative vote for aro folks for those people who may be are being introduced to it through this exhibition? Or are you just like, no, they can use their brains and figure out that?
ZACHARY: A little bit. And I feel like where I helped in that is like, I do have this series of pieces called Q files, which like comes when they did like… they're based off of like 90s trading cards, like I grew up with like X-Men trading cards, or like I basically I did something like baseball cards. And in that series, there's like 12 of them, I did collect stories from other aro people like through the internet. And so, I think that is nice to kind of spread out the experience a little bit and like bring other voices into the show. But like, well, yeah, ultimately, I can only speak to my own experience. But I know from people I've talked to, what I've read, like there's overlaps between what I'm feeling for other people, so, I'm going to like touch those things.
SARAH: Yeah. I think that's one of the difficult things about being in the aspec community, whether that's acespec or arospec, is that because we're such a small group, and because our identities are relatively unknown by the general population, it sometimes feels like we have to be the representative. And whatever we are, is what people will assume that everyone under the umbrella is. And that's a reason why things like what you're doing with this exhibition and like the art that you make is good, because the more people are exposed to it, the more they can learn about it and understand how diverse of experiences various aro people have, so, more of that.
ZACHARY: Yeah, I mean, I would love for other artists to like… I mean, obviously, there are some aro artists here and there, but I think it's like, it's the more the better, because we're going to get different angles on things.
KAYLA: Yeah, that's what we're like always saying about podcasts. I know, especially in the past, where we like, I don't know, were more like public, there was a time where like a lot of fucking like journalists wanted to talk to us for whatever fucking reason. But it was very like, it felt weird, because we were like, okay, we're going to give you these answers. But like, please know, this does not speak for everyone. Like, this is just us. And so that's the… I feel like, especially lately, both of us have been like more ace and aro podcasts, more people online talking about it, like we need…
ZACHARY: Yeah. I mean, there was that one AOK, I like loved that one.
KAYLA: Yes.
ZACHARY: Yeah, I listen to so much of AOK and I was like, yeah, this is really nice.
SARAH: Yeah. It has been like… like, we want competition, like, more…
KAYLA: That company, yeah, more
SARAH: Don't even compete with us, just outpace us.
KAYLA: Please be better, yeah.
SARAH: Yeah. What do you hope people gain from this series? Like people who attend? Like, what do you want them to walk away feeling?
ZACHARY: Yeah, that's a good question. I think I want them, their eyes opened a little bit, like around relationships that, you know, there are different ways of thinking about our romantic relationships and our friendships. And just to kind of see that there's alternatives out there. You know, that A, there's like people struggling with mainstream relationships, but also people building different kinds of like friendships and things as well. So, you know, as much as I can do that in like 18 art pieces. So, that and also to understand that, like, this is a type of person that exists, that's out there, you know, this is a perspective that is mine, but also that I share with an uncountable number of people, you know. So, I think those two things definitely, like, I want it to be like an eye-opening show, because I mean most people I know, like, do not even know the word in aromantic is a word, like they've never heard aro as a shorter word or arospec, like, so we're really starting from like the ground.
SARAH: Yeah.
ZACHARY: Yeah, I still have people like… so often are like, oh, like, asexual, you know, and I'm like, no, there's more words.
SARAH: Yeah, and that's also… you're in like an arty scene. And you know, this is being shown at a university like for… and that's like a more ‘liberal progressive space,’ who are more likely to know these terms, and they still don't know them, so just spreading it far and wide.
ZACHARY: Yeah. And I'm really excited for that. Like, this is… one of the requirements of this gallery is you show is you have to have a student component. And I'm like, very excited to have that. And so, you know, I just met with that with the Ace of Clubs, the aro-ace club at Grand Valley. And so, I'm doing a student panel with them as part of the exhibition. And I'm so excited to like… I mean, I'm meeting aro-ace college students for the first time, which is very exciting. And I'm so excited to like… we talked about like, what kind of questions you want to be asked, and what should we cover, because I'm going to moderate it.
[00:50:00]
ZACHARY: And so, I'm so excited to like, bring them in and like bring the public kind of to them. So, I think it'll be a really nice introduction. And then once again, it's not just me, it’s…
SARAH: Right. I also love that just because so often, the aro and ace communities are seen as young communities, which of course, like they are young in terms of how old the community is, but I mean, the members of the community, like the average age, it's younger. And so obviously, these college students are on the younger side, but like, the fact that you're there moderating as like a real adult.
ZACHARY: I mean, my birthday is on Valentine's Day, I'm going to turn 38.
KAYLA: Oh my God!
SARAH: I love that.
ZACHARY: I'm like installing on my birthday, it was like kind of great.
KAYLA: That's so funny.
SARAH: That's great. But yeah, it's good to be able to like, have that representation of like, here's a grown person who identifies this way, who is a professional in their field. Like, it's not just like a thing that you do in college, it's a real way of existing and a lot of people exist that way.
KAYLA: We have such a lack of like aro and ace elders, because it is such a young community. There are so few people who feel like they've been in the community, they've identified that way for so long. Even, you know, you have people in your 50s, 60s, 70s that identify as aro maybe, but they didn't even learn about the term until like five years ago. So yeah, it's so cool seeing this, that you are in a position like at a university where you're… like Sarah said, like an established, you're like, I'm a real adult who has been out of college, that you're there for those students as kind of like a role model in that way.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: I've been feeling very old and queer lately because one of… there's a young person who has recently… I've like become introduced to in my life, who is a young queer person. And they have very much been like asking me questions or like have viewed what I do in life and like that has impacted them in certain ways. And I'm like, what!? But I'm just a baby. What do you mean? I too am a local teen. What do you mean by that?
SARAH: I mean, we're going to hit nine years of this podcast this year.
KAYLA: Gross! Yuck!
SARAH: Like we were babies when we started this.
KAYLA: We were those college aspec students when we started this, which is crazy, gross, yuck.
SARAH: And now we're like real grown adults.
KAYLA: Grown adults
SARAH: We are the elders.
KAYLA: We are old. That is crazy, I don't like that.
SARAH: Kayla, do you have any other questions you would like to ask?
KAYLA: I guess my last one would be for other aro artists who like want to put aro art out there and want to get into this in a certain way, do you have any like words of advice or like words of encouragement?
ZACHARY: That's a good question. I would say like… I mean, I just started with the resources that I had where I live. Like, so I would say if you're interested, I think it's great to show. I mean, like I said, I'm an art professor, I always tell my students like the best way to see art is in person. Like art is old fashioned, it's not really meant for screens most of the time, it's like meant to be seen in front of you. So, if I imagine people out there, it's like, yeah, does your local library have an art space? Like, does your community center have an art space? You know, where can you like kind of introduce this locally? Can you do like a workshop? Like a zine workshop or something at the library or, you know, whatever. Like we have a comic shop with a local zine section. I would think it'd be nice to start with like what the resources you have, because I would love to just get this stuff physically out in the world. I think we have an advantage too as artists, I mean, because this identity is so niche, like use that to your advantage, you know, I applied to an art residency a couple of years ago in rural Illinois and I was like, I want to work on this like aromantic series, they had never heard of this identity before, but that made them interested in it, they were like, okay. Like my friend, she was one of the like references and she said when she spoke to them, they were like very interested in this because they didn't know anything about it. So, I think that's encouraging for artists, that's like a strength for us to, you know, you can really speak to… if you need to convince someone, you know, that they should show your work somewhere. It's like, you can convince them of the importance, I think easily. So, yeah, I mean, that's what I… well, because it's where I work, I could just actually sign up for a show. I mean, as moving forward, like I do want to show this more and I'm really going to push this as like, there's not a lot out here, this is an identity that needs a voice, I think that's really going to resonate with people.
SARAH: Yeah. You don't have to be a super-established artist in New York city to put this sort of thing on a… not a pedestal, but on display.
ZACHARY: I don't have an art degree, I was an art history student who just figured stuff out over the years, you know, like I just made art because I love it, but I'm not like coming with a million skills and resources.
SARAH: Yeah. Zachary, is there anything that you want to talk about that we haven't hit yet? The answer can be no.
ZACHARY: Right. Yeah. I'm like, is there something we need to talk about, yeah, I think like one thing I want to do with the show is like push back a little bit, like kind of approach things from a place of like strength or like having a little bit of an attitude.
KAYLA: Ooh
ZACHARY: And there's a piece that really speaks to that on my website, it's a thing that people all know, but it has a word that no one knows. So, it's called a lenticular and lenticular, if you ever get like a magnet or a postcard that when you turn it, the image shifts, like there's a little animation built into this like plastic card. I worked with the Detroit company and like made like a large-scale lenticular, it's like two feet by two feet for the show. But that was me wanting to push a little bit because I think what really made me struggle in my twenties, figuring out my aro identity was people being like, well, maybe you just have a fear of commitment or maybe you just have like a fear of intimacy, you know? And I thought like, oh, maybe they're right, you know maybe this is something… I've been told I need to go to a therapist, you know, I've gone to a therapist for relationship issues and they've sort of tried to go down this track with me. And you know, eventually I was like, well, that's just someone else's value system and that doesn't have to be mine. Like these things are talked about like they're like some kind of truth, like objective truth, like you should like intimacy and you should like commitment and if you don't, something's wrong. And you know, like my mother's a retired therapist, like I would get this from all angles. And so, I was like, I… what's fun about an artist is there's a sense of power, you're like, I can make whatever I want and I can say whatever I want and I can put it out there. So, I was like, I want to challenge this value system. And so, I have that lenticular piece and there's my own handwriting on it in sort of the shape of a hexagon, octagon? Hex… octagon, I want to say… maybe hexagon.
SARAH: Some sides.
KAYLA: Some sides for sure.
ZACHARY: Some kind of sides. And there's phrases that say like, fear of intimacy, fear of commitment but then I matched those like across the shape with like fear of freedom, like maybe kind of pushing back, like, well, I don't have a fear of intimacy, you have a fear of freedom, but like, I don't have a fear of commitment like you have a fear of independence. And so, I wanted to like put my values and these mainstream values on equal footing and show like, it's all subjective, like it's all just based on how people naturally feel as individuals. So, I think with that and a couple of other pieces, I wanted to be like, you can't have the whole conversation, you know? Like we got something of value, we have a different perspective and it's just as valid and that's something I like wanted to bring into the show.
SARAH: I love that. And I think it also… it speaks to the idea of so many people, especially in the United States or just in Western countries in general, think that their culture’s point of view on personhood, on community, on relationships is the correct one, is the only one and the correct one. And that other cultures who view things differently, like that's somehow incorrect or like it's not the default, it's like some weird secondary thing. And I think like it's helpful to remind people that that's mainstream where you are maybe, but that doesn't mean it's inherently right or inherently the only way to view things.
ZACHARY: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, when I lived in Japan, it was like so many things that you thought were objective and were true are just… we're just American all along. And then there's a different way of living when it comes to so many things. And it's hard for people to learn that, I think, yeah.
KAYLA: Yeah. I also love the idea of coming at it with that kind of attitude and empowerment. And I've kind of gotten this vibe from you as we've been talking about this piece is just like the positivity with what you're thinking about your aromanticism and your identity I think so often we hear, especially from young people who are just coming into their identities, a lot of fear and a lot of feeling like you're broken or feeling like you're missing out on something. And so, seeing these pieces of so empowering and being like, no, actually I have the upper hand, I have the power and you are missing out on something actually. Like I think that is such a place of power to come from with your identity.
ZACHARY: Yeah. I'm glad you said that, I'm really trying… That's something I do really want to communicate because I think it is powerful. It's like to not want something, like a romantic relationship for instance, that everyone is chasing after and stressing about and pursuing and they're on dating apps and there's matchmakers, and just to step outside of that and focus on anything else, like how powerful is that.
[01:00:00]
KAYLA: Yeah. I've never really thought about it that way. This is something that ‘everyone’ wants, people are spending like insane amount of money on and you're like, actually I don't… that means nothing to me.
ZACHARY: Yeah. And just say like, I'm happy already, like that's huge.
KAYLA: Yeah. Wow.
SARAH: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for joining us. I don't know how online you are, but remind us again where you can see the exhibition and where can the people of the internet find you online?
ZACHARY: Sure. Yeah. The exhibition is running from February 16th through the 25th. So, it's a nine-day show and that is at the Calder Art Center at Grand Valley State University in Allendale, Michigan. And within the art center, it is in the Padnos Student Gallery. And like I said, it's open seven days a week for over 12 hours a day, every day.
KAYLA: Get in there.
ZACHARY: Get in there.
SARAH: No excuses.
ZACHARY: Yes. Online, I have a lot of pieces from the work kind of in a digital form on my website, and that is zacharytrebellas.com. My last name, I'm sure it's going to be in the show notes, so
KAYLA: Yeah, it will be, we'll put the link, yes.
ZACHARY: And I have an Instagram as an artist, which I use here and there, not a ton of time, and that is just Zachary Trebellas on Instagram, so that's where you can find things.
SARAH: Delightful.
KAYLA: Get over there.
SARAH: Kayla, what's our poll for this week?
ZACHARY: Ooh, that’s a good question
SARAH: Are you going to the exhibition?
ZACHARY: Are you going to the exhibition? And if not, what the heck?
SARAH: Why?
KAYLA: Why? You better have a good reason.
SARAH: I would just really encourage everyone to check out the materials online if you can't go
KAYLA: If you can’t go, yeah
SARAH: Because me and Kayla, we're both looking at them and we both texted each other and we were like, this makes me feel kind of dumb, but like in a good way.
KAYLA: In a good way, I was like, this really has me thinking.
SARAH: Like I'm thinking. And I think the conversation with you has like really shed a lot of light on that. So, like, I don't mean to say that to make people wary of checking it out, I think that's all the more reason to check it out.
KAYLA: No, I personally could do with spending a lot more time with art, especially in physical spaces. I was looking at it and I was like, wow, this really does make my brain think in a way that I don't usually, this is very good for me, I need to go to a fucking museum.
ZACHARY: Good for you. I would say that the like underbelly of a lot of my work is I love wordplay and so that's also like stuffed into so many pieces.
KAYLA: Yeah. I love it.
ZACHARY: Like even that chart of the two figures, that's like aro and allo, like all of the body parts are like kind of secret jokes, like when I use the word limerant, I pointing to the limb.
KAYLA: Ah, I get it.
ZACHARY: Yeah, they're all kind of like in…
KAYLA: I need to look through it all again.
ZACHARY: Yeah. I used to write a lot of lyrics and so I love like wordplay and a joke and a pun.
KAYLA: Yeah. I love that, a nice puzzle for my brain.
SARAH: I love that. Next, we usually do our beef and juice of the week. So, our beef is something that we have beef with and our juice is something that is the opposite of beef that we're happy about.
KAYLA: We like it.
SARAH: It's a good thing.
ZACHARY: Yeah.
SARAH: So, we can go first to give you a little bit of time to ponder on that. Kayla, you go first.
KAYLA: Me go first? Okay. My beef is that it is so cold where I live, the other day I was walking into work, it was I think six degrees, maybe three degrees that morning and I was walking from my bus stop to my building and I also… I work on a campus as well and they had not done a good job shoveling and they made me go back to school, anyway. Like it made my face hurt to walk in such cold. But we have tunnels on campus so that was nice, I just went into a tunnel and did walk the long way through the tunnels. My juice is that I had a lot of queer joy this weekend, on Friday night I went to a Heated Rivalry club night and I did cry in the club because everyone was being so queer joy about it and so I shed a few little tears in the gay club because all the queer people were so happy. It was definitely the big old freak edit that got me.
SARAH: That really got you, yeah, yeah
KAYLA: For sure. No, there was a confetti cannon. Well, I don't want to spoil it if anyone else is going to one of the club nights and I know Sarah is going to one at some point. So, I don't want to spoil it but there was a very well-timed confetti cannon that really got me, the confetti cannon really got me, okayyyy?
SARAH: Love that for you.
KAYLA: Thank you.
SARAH: My beef is that my tummy hurts because I ate too much cereal too fast right before this, that's my beef.
KAYLA: And it was cornflakes which I find very ironic, because aren't cornflakes the ones that… they made cornflakes to make people stop being so horny? Was that cornflakes?
ZACHARY: Yes, in Battle Creek, Michigan.
KAYLA: Yes. A classic
SARAH: Cereal city, baby.
KAYLA: Battle Creek, cereal city. So, I just think it's ironic that that's why your tummy hurts is because of the anti-horny cereal.
SARAH: Anti-horny cereal. My juice is until I ate all that cereal I was being kind of productive this morning.
KAYLA: Cereal really ruined it.
SARAH: Cereal threw me for a loop. Zachary, so obviously they don't have to be big things, they can be small things.
KAYLA: Not serious.
SARAH: Last week Kayla's beef was fascism or I guess two weeks ago now for the listeners.
KAYLA: And I want to be clear, that that is always my undeniable beef.
SARAH: It's always.
KAYLA: Sometimes I just don't need… you know, I think everyone is already thinking about it and maybe I don't bring it up every time, but just know it's in there.
SARAH: Right. Zachary, so what is your beef and your juice for this week?
ZACHARY: My beef is that I am saddened at how few colors I see the college students wearing at my college
KAYLA: Really?
ZACHARY: And I just want to somehow mentally encourage everyone to be more colorful. I was in the cafeteria the other day and I just did a quick count and 23 students are wearing either black, white, or gray and two students are wearing a color.
KAYLA: Interesting.
SARAH: Wow
ZACHARY: That was almost 90% colorless outfits. I know it's winter and it's the season when people tend to wear more lack of colors, but it's sad for me. So little. And I have a day in class when I make all the students wear like a solid color of the rainbow for like some games we have to play and it's like the best the classroom ever looks, it's like an orange, yellow, green, blue, violet, and so...
KAYLA: Now I want to start counting at my school because now that I think about it, I bet they all dress really sad beige baby too.
SARAH: Unfortunately, I would be contributing to that lack of color, like every time my mom like looks in my closet, she's like, do you own color? A couple. A couple.
KAYLA: It's just black up here. My room is colorful, you can have… there you go.
ZACHARY: Yeah, yeah.
KAYLA: See, I bring the color for Sarah every time.
ZACHARY: My juice is that it's 25 degrees today.
KAYLA: Ooh, balmy
ZACHARY: Yeah. And it's going to dip, but today I felt alive and the sun was out and I'd never thought 25 could feel so warm.
KAYLA: Isn't it the saddest thing?
ZACHARY: I know.
SARAH: I have a friend who also lives in West Michigan, who does a lot of dog walking. And so, she has just been suffering for the past couple days, weeks, however many, however much time, spending a lot of time outside with the dogs. So, when she texted today that it was 30 degrees, I was like, that is absolutely balmy.
KAYLA: That's like hot.
SARAH: Put on some sunscreen. I love that for you. It has been hot in LA and I'm so warm here.
KAYLA: Ooh, it's so hot in LA.
SARAH: Take it. Take some. I'm offering it to you.
ZACHARY: It's uncomfortable either end of it.
KAYLA: I know. All the dogs around here have been wearing little boots lately and I think that's very nice.
SARAH: Little boots
KAYLA: I feel bad for them, but because they have nowhere to pee because there's snow.
SARAH: I mean, they're dogs, they can kind of pee wherever.
KAYLA: Yeah. But then I have to see it. The snow is so dirty now because we got like two feet of snow here and then it's… there's nowhere to put it and I don't know why they aren't putting it in the ocean.
SARAH: Okay.
KAYLA: Well, because I heard a story, some town in Rhode Island was like, okay, fine, you can put the snow in the ocean. They don't usually let them, but they were like, just this once, you can put the snow in the ocean. And I was like, why not every time?
SARAH: I saw in New York, they have a thing that they bring around that they just put snow into, it’s a hot tub.
KAYLA: A hot tub! We were talking about that the other day. It was a hot tub, which I have no understanding because what do you do when the water gets full? I have no understanding of how that works.
SARAH: I don't know.
KAYLA: I just don't understand. And is that water allowed to go into the ocean?
SARAH: You go write a letter to Zohran Mamdani and ask him.
KAYLA: I will, I bet he'd answer me.
SARAH: Hi, it's Sarah from the future here with your patrons. Also, before I jump into that, I just want to say I edited this podcast after editing last week's podcast, even though we recorded this one first. And it was so interesting to me hearing us talk about friendship and how important it was to Zachary in light of talking about aplatonicism last week. And that is just so interesting and we all have such a wide variety of experiences under the same umbrella. Anyway, our $5 patrons who we are promoting this week are Alexander, Alma, Alucard Zavertnik, Amanda Kyker, and Ashley W. Our $10 patrons who are promoting something this week are SongOStorm who would like to promote a healthy work-life balance. Val, who would like to promote being silly, also the Winter Olympics.
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SARAH: Well, I don't want to put that in Val's mouth, some people are really against the Olympics, but you know, okay. Alastor, who would like to promote the podcast 'Shadows and Shenanigans.' Ani who would like to promote the importance of being kind to yourself and others. And Arcnes, who would like to promote the Trevor Project. Our other $10 patrons are Benjamin Ybarra, Clare Olsen, Danielle Hutchinson, Derick & Carissa, Elle Bitter, Eric, my aunt Jeannie, Johanna, Kayla's dad, KELLER Bradley, Maff, Martin Chiesl, Purple Hayes, Quartertone, and Barefoot Backpacker. Our $15 patrons are Ace, who would like to promote the writer Crystal Scherer. Nathaniel White who would like to promote NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com. Kayla’s Aunt Nina who would like to promote katemaggartart.com. And Schnell who would like to promote accepting that everyone is different and that's awesome. Our $20 patrons are Changeling & Alex, who would like to promote their company, ControlAltAccess (dot com) and Dr. Jacki, Dragonfly, my mom, and River, who would like to promote I think sports are kind of cool. They would like to promote that I think that, not that they think that. I don't want to put words in their mouth, I do every week, but don't worry about it. Anyway, okay, cool. Thank you back to Sarah and Kayla and Zachary from the past. Anyway, thank you so much Zachary for joining and tolerating our weird side conversations. Everyone, please check out the exhibition, whether it's in person or online. I think that's all. Any last words, Zachary?
ZACHARY: Just thank you so much for having me, I really appreciate it.
KAYLA: You’re so welcome.
SARAH: It’s a joy. It’s a joy. Thanks for listening. Happy Aro Week, everyone.
KAYLA: Yay!
SARAH: Please take care of yourselves. Do something fun. Eat a cookie, whatever pleases you.
KAYLA: Not cornflakes.
SARAH: Yeah, cornflakes, maybe not. Unless you want them, in which case, go ahead and try. Tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.
KAYLA: And until then, take good care of your cows.
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