Ep 361: Tops, Bottoms, and Queer Heteronormativity
SARAH: Hey, what's up? Hello! Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl (I’m Sarah, that's me)
KAYLA: And a bi demisexual girl (that's me, Kayla)
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand
KAYLA: On today's episode, ‘Tops and Bottoms’
BOTH: Sounds fake, but okay
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod!
KAYLA: Welcome back to the pod! Church dismissed
SARAH: How is everyone?
KAYLA: Sarah and I both have headaches and lost our gusto in the last couple of hours, so
SARAH: Yeah. My headache is not that bad, I think I kind of drugged myself early enough that I’ll be fine but…
KAYLA: I think I’m gonna wake up with my headache tomorrow
SARAH: Yeah, see, it's either going to be fine or it's a migraine and the meds won't do anything
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But I am very lucky in that my migraines are low, they're low ouch, they just don't go away
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I don't have crazy owie
KAYLA: I feel like... I think this headache is a dehydration headache because I didn't really drink that much water today and then I worked out
SARAH: Quick drink break, everyone
KAYLA: Yeah, drink break. But I think it's gonna transfer into it a…
SARAH: I’m talking to you
KAYLA: Oh. I think it's gonna transfer into a tension migraine overnight, because a lot of times my headaches just stay overnight and then… so, that's my prediction, so cool
SARAH: I choked on my water during my water break
KAYLA: And this is why we shouldn't drink water, this is why
SARAH: Anyway
KAYLA: Anyway
SARAH: Hi, how are you? I already asked you how you were. Okay…
KAYLA: Anyone else have a headache? What are y'all up to?
SARAH: Do we have any housekeeping?
KAYLA: Does anyone… here's the thing, the reason I get most of my migraines and headaches is because of muscle tension because I… part of it is… a lot of it is because I…
SARAH: You hold it
KAYLA: Clench my jaw a lot. I hold it, I clench my jaw and my shoulders are up and so then the tension it just turns into a migraine. I don't want to go through the years of medical trial and error to deal with like TMJ or whatever
SARAH: Oh, my mom…
KAYLA: I want to skip directly to getting botox in my jaw to relax it
SARAH: Okay
KAYLA: I understand that insurance won't cover that until I try literally everything else. So, what I’m asking is for any plastic surgeon listening right now, just give it to me for free
SARAH: Uh-huh. I know we’ve got a ton of surgeons
KAYLA: I know we have so many plastic surgeons listening in and they're all in my area, for sure
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: And what I’m asking for is for it for free so I don't have to do whatever my insurance wants
SARAH: What about like ten dollars?
KAYLA: I could do ten
SARAH: Okay. Is $15 too much?
KAYLA: Not to brag but I could do $15
SARAH: Okay, rich!
KAYLA: Ooh. Anyway, that's my housekeeping
SARAH: Okay. I was about to be like, “let's start.” And then I realized that this was my idea and so I have…
KAYLA: Yeah, I mean, you can do the usual thing where you're like, “Kayla what are we talking about?” But I will just say like a sentence and then pass it back to you
SARAH: Kayla, walk with me here
KAYLA: I’m walking, slowly
SARAH: What are we talking about this week?
KAYLA: This week we're talking about the concept of I think both sexual and like… not societal, like social dynamic…
SARAH: Cultural…
KAYLA: Top and bottoms
SARAH: Yes
KAYLA: And why… and stop it
SARAH: And stop it. This came about because last night I got into an argument with people on Twitter about…
KAYLA: A fine use of time, a totally great and fine use of our time
SARAH: About whether or not it should be mandatory to tag top and bottom dynamics in fan fiction
KAYLA: First of all, I don't think there are many things in fan fiction that should be labeled as ‘mandatory,’ I think like trigger warnings…
SARAH: Okay, so, this is…
KAYLA: Is maybe it for mandatory
SARAH: This is what I was saying to this person…
KAYLA: Like, it's fan fiction people, let’s…
SARAH: So, I’ve seen a lot of people online argue about ‘properly tagging’ tops and bottoms. Okay, we have to back up really far, archive of our own
KAYLA: Right
SARAH: Also, known as AO3, is the superior fan fiction website. AO3 has a very robust tagging system, it is very good, you can filter to only include certain tags, you can filter out certain tags, you can filter in or out certain lengths of fics, fics that are complete or incomplete, certain ratings of fics. Like, you can filter by language if you want it in like one of those Star Trek languages, you can do that
KAYLA: That’s crazy
SARAH: So, tags are useful on AO3
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But I have seen discourse over the years, this isn't just like… sorry, I got distracted by… I was trying to find these tweets and I got distracted by a picture of a K-pop idol
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: What was I saying? So… what? No, but what was I saying? What were we talking about?
KAYLA: That tags are useful…
SARAH: Tags are useful
KAYLA: And this is not a new debate
SARAH: Correct. I have seen people constantly… like, people are constantly… people get so up in arms about in their ships who tops and who bottoms. Okay, let's now back up on that
KAYLA: Right, I was just gonna say, “explain.”
SARAH: What does that mean? Okay, now, not to be… okay, here's… the other thing… no, I’ll get into this later
KAYLA: No. I knew where you were gonna go, no
SARAH: No, not yet. Okay, when you're talking about sexual, the gay… good, when you're talking about gay sex
KAYLA: Right
SARAH: Slash… we're gonna start with just like sex, that's where we're starting
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: We can get into other dynamics
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But on the base level
KAYLA: Penetrative sex…
SARAH: Penetrative sex
KAYLA: I would say is base level of where this comes from
SARAH: Yes. The person who is the top or who tops is the person who is penetrating and the person who is the bottom or who bottoms is the person who is penetrated
KAYLA: The receiver… the giving and the receiving
SARAH: The giver and the receiver, the top is the giver…
KAYLA: The pitcher and the catcher
SARAH: Yes, exactly. This applies in gay sex of all sorts
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I do think a lot of the discourse I have seen in this has been about gay man sex, like achillean
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I think most of the discourse is about that
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Because it obviously works a little differently with sapphicness
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Because… yeah, anyway. But a lot of people have very strong feelings about who in their fictional little writing worlds is the top and who is the bottom. I understand you may have a preference, that's fine. Like, you think it matches the characters better, that's fine. But there are a lot of people who will not engage with, will completely blacklist, will not touch with a 39-and-a-half-foot pole, any media that portrays the top/bottom dynamic that they don't like between these two characters
KAYLA: Mm
SARAH: And they feel very strongly about this. And they like to periodically complain on the internet about authors not ‘properly tagging’ their fics. These people believe that anytime a fic is posted that has a sex in it, it needs to be tagged who is what
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: So, that people who don't like certain dynamics can filter those out. And in this conversation that I saw yesterday, these people were talking about how, if it's not tagged and like you just have to kind of go in blind, not knowing and then they'll like get, you know, 20k in and then they'll get to smut and then it'll be what they don't like and then they'll be mad and then they'll rage-quit, and I’m like… so, I got into an argument with someone
KAYLA: Of course, naturally
SARAH: Because it wasn't… it actually like wasn't like super-bad or anything, but the initial tweet was just that reading explicit fics with untagged top/bottom is like playing fucking Russian roulette, which is a funny way to phrase it
KAYLA: Yeah
[00:10:00]
SARAH: But then they said like a bunch of other things and so I saw it because someone I knew had quote/retweeted it and been like, “you’re fucking stupid.” So, then I basically said something to the effect of like, I am politely waiting to hear a concrete reason why tagging top and bottom dynamics should be mandatory that isn't, “oh, it makes me sad when my free stories don't align with my personal-preferred head canon”
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: So, then I’m like, okay, by that logic, like, I’m sorry if we're talking about men sex, do we need tags identifying dick size too? Like, if your head canon is that somebody has a dick of a certain size, do you need to be able to filter out fics that…
KAYLA: Well, and that's the thing too, is if you're getting… like, tags are great, right?
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: If you are getting so granular with tags that it is clear that you have a very specific vision in mind for exactly what you want to read, at that point, you need to be writing it yourself
SARAH: Yes
KAYLA: Like, I understand having preferences for like genre and themes and stuff like that, but at that point if you're being so picky with the plot points and like the story arcs, then that is… you can't do that
SARAH: Yes
KAYLA: Like, that's just not how it works
SARAH: So, I then had a reply to that where I was basically like, “look if anyone has a genuine reason that they believe is reasonable, I would be happy to hear it. But I don't like it when people use cringy pet names in fan fiction but I don't expect that to be tagged.”
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I was just like, “I’m confused why people feel so strongly about this.” And OP responded to me, they're hard to find now because at some point OP blocked me, so give me a minute
KAYLA: Ooh
SARAH: I have go into my notifications
KAYLA: Sarah! Sarah! Sarah! Sarah!
SARAH: I wasn't even mean. A horrible website, horrible fucking website, awful website, why do I spend my time here? Okay, basically… so, we're not going to be able to follow this directly because I can't view it chronologically
KAYLA: Sure
SARAH: But basically, so, OP responds, and they were like, “okay, so tags exist so that you can filter out what you want to read and what you don't want to read. If you don't want to read a certain dynamic and it's not tagged, you can't use telepathy to find out, idk what fandom you're in but I’ve seen people tagging if pet names are used.” Okay, that wasn’t…
KAYLA: Who is doing that?
SARAH: What?
KAYLA: Who is doing that?
SARAH: Anyway, okay. And so, I said, I was like, “look, I always understood the purpose of tags is to be basic descriptors fundamental to a fic so you have fandom, ship, characters, genre…” like, if it's a zombie AU, that's relevant information, you know?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And then anything that requires a trigger warning or may otherwise be a third rail. So, like dead dove, hard kinks, ABO and mpreg, like, if you don't know what any of those things mean, don't worry about it, by the way
KAYLA: I know what like half of those are
SARAH: Don't worry about it. Every time I say ABO you're like, “what is that?” and then I explain it to you and you're like, “oh.’ Every time you forget
KAYLA: I don't remember you ever explaining that to me
SARAH: I think it happened on this podcast merely three weeks ago
KAYLA: I remember you explaining ‘dead dove’ to me, do I remember what the answer was? No, but I remember that being explained
SARAH: Okay, well…
KAYLA: Oh, it's the omegaverse shit
SARAH: ABO, yeah
KAYLA: I just don't know it by that acronym
SARAH: Sorry
KAYLA: Whatever. Whatever!
SARAH: But like those are the things that it's very important to tag. Like, those are like what you would kind of consider like mandatory, right?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And I was like, if an author wants to tag other dynamics, they're welcome to, but it is by no means required
KAYLA: Yeah. Mandatory is strict
SARAH: Yeah. And in the situation of if we're talking about achillean fic, like who puts dick in which orifice, is not fundamental information to a fan fiction
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: It's not. And then they were like, “well, it might not be fundamental for you, but it does matter for a few people and it's okay for them to want to know, you could say it's like buying ice cream, if you like vanilla but then someone blindfolds you and then hands you an ice cream that turns out to be chocolate, will you not be a little disappointed?” And I was like, that's not a fair metaphor
KAYLA: That is so not the same… that’s like a good metaphor for genre not for dick where
SARAH: Right. And so, I said, “what you're describing isn't someone handing you ice cream and lying about the flavor, you're describing someone handing you ice cream that isn't labeled, you decide to eat it anyway with the hopes that it's vanilla and then being disappointed it's chocolate”
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: That's not the same thing
KAYLA: No, yeah.
SARAH: And…
KAYLA: It's so funny this person blocked you
SARAH: I think I know why they did, we'll get there. So, then they go, “well, that's exactly what I’m trying to say, if on a certain day you're in a mood for vanilla but then you accidentally end up eating chocolate because you didn't know what flavor you were consuming, you'd definitely be a little sad and that's why it's important to know what flavor you're going to eat and for the flavor to be labeled so you can avoid what you don't want to eat and what you do want to eat.” And I said, “the ice cream is already free, if you getting chocolate is going to ruin your day, then don't eat unlabeled ice cream.” I understand that might be annoying but that's kind of what you get for being a picky eater and I said, “I say this…”
KAYLA: And also, it's free
SARAH: “As someone who is a picky eater in real-life.”
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like, if you were to hand me unlabeled ice cream and say, “I’m not going to tell you what this is and you won't know until you eat it” I would not eat it
KAYLA: Yeah. And it's free, so you can't be mad about it
SARAH: And then this person goes, “yeah, I know, I get what you mean, but I can still hope it's labeled and get annoyed when it isn't.” And I was like, “that's totally fair but…”
KAYLA: You can get annoyed, you don't have to post about it and insist that it's mandatory, being annoyed at anything is allowed, always
SARAH: Well, and that's what I said, I said, “as I said in my original tweet, that doesn't pass the threshold of it being so important as to be mandatory, which people so often claim it should be.” Like, that's like the mindset so many people have
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And I was like, “just because some people might be annoyed, it doesn't mean it's bad etiquette for an author not to tag it.”
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And then there was another response I had that kind of set… made a different… it set off a different thread, weirdly. I also said… and this is where we really get into the theme of this particular episode of the podcast, we're getting there, we're getting there
KAYLA: Okay, okay
SARAH: I said, “also worth noting is that the top/bottom dynamic isn't inherently indicative of a sexual dynamic like for example dom and sub is”
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: “And dom and sub I can better understand why it would be important to tag that. Like who is who, I still don't think it's required”
KAYLA: No, I… yeah
SARAH: But I can better understand why someone would want that. And I was like, “I think so often people use topping and bottoming as a shorthand for who the man is versus who the woman is in the relationship, because people who are so insistent that this character can only be the bottom, that character is usually the more feminine character”
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And so, I said, I was like, “when people use that as a shorthand, that is just heteronormativity and homophobia, really”
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And the person was like, “I’m not those people, and if that's what you think, respectfully, I think there's no need to continue this discussion”
KAYLA: Okay, bye
SARAH: And then I said, “I’m not saying you are those people, but internalized heteronormativity is objectively a bitch”
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like, that's just true
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And those people who think that way do certainly exist and I don't think that authors who, again, do this for free, have any obligation to cater to those people by tagging in a way that is most convenient to them. And then there was something else I was gonna say, and then I was trying to say it and then my tweet wouldn't send and it kept not sending…
KAYLA: Because you had been blocked
SARAH: And I said, I think they've blocked me
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And now I don't really remember what that other thing was. But also, this person when I clicked on their thing, their bio, the first thing in their bio says, ‘bottom, name of character only, thank you.’ Like, that's the most important thing?
KAYLA: That is a wild thing to base your personality on
SARAH: I don't even know what character or fandom this is, I don't even know, but it blows my mind that some people… like, they will get mad if you write something with the dynamic that is not what they prefer. Or they'll be like, “oh, I was enjoying…” this doesn't happen to me because I don't write smut, but like I have seen it happen to other people, I have seen people complain about it happening to them, when people are like, “oh, I was enjoying this fic so much and then you ruined it by making the wrong character put their dick in the wrong place.” Like!?
KAYLA: Wild. If it bothers you that much just stop reading and move on
[00:20:00]
SARAH: Yes
KAYLA: Like, why are you making that everyone else's problem?
SARAH: And so, I basically said like, look, if you outright blacklist any fic that doesn't follow your preferred top and bottom dynamic, there is definitely at least some heteronormativity involved, like, whether you realize it or not. I think exceptions, there are two places where I think exceptions can be made for that, it's when there are canon grounds for a character to not want to do one or the other, stemming from like trauma or boundaries surrounding their sexual identity, I think those… like, if that's your hard line, then that's fine. But if you're just like, I don't want this person to put their dick in somebody's ass because I just think they're too femme for that, like, what are you talking about?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Yes. And it generally is the more feminine character who people insist upon being the bottom, why is that? Let's unpack our heteronormativity, please
KAYLA: Yeah, I think it is so interesting and also sad how pervasive that… because like you said, I don't mind the dom and sub thing, because I think so often in sexual relationships, like, that… like, there is some element of that, like there is going to be like… and it's not like it's the same every time but there's going to be one person who is like maybe even just like one percent more like ‘in control’ of the situation.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: Again, not that it's like, oh, you're dynamic is every time this person is like the dom or whatever. Like, I don't think there's anything wrong with that and I think like obviously in the kink community that's a big thing and that's like…
SARAH: Right. I think especially in situations where it's like… it's not like, oh, this person is more dominant and this person is more submissive, like, in a situation where it's like, this person is the dom and this person is this, like, that's definitely more important to be identifying because there are further implications to that
KAYLA: Right, because, yeah, then you're getting into like kink and whether like what your boundaries are around like reading that or consuming that or whatever
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: So, like that to me is… whatever. But in queer spaces having the like, oh, in my like queer relationship I’m the bottom, I’m the top, I’m the femme, I’m the masc, is sad to me because I feel like I always hear queer people complaining about like, “oh, this homophobic guy came up to me and my girlfriend on the street and was like, oh, which one of you wears the pants? Which one is the man?” And they get rightfully offended
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But then you have the same people like talking about, “oh, I’m the top in our relationship,” or “I’m the bottom,” or like, “I’m the masc” or “I’m the femme,” whatever, and it just feels like it's making that gender divide more pervasive
SARAH: Right. I think being in a more femme with a more masc person or with a butch person or with whatever terminology you feel is accurate to that particular person, that's fine, but if you're going to inherently enforce stereotypes upon those people because of how they present themselves, that is a problem
KAYLA: Right, if you're saying that like, “oh, I’m the femme,” so, like, I’m always gonna be the more submissive one or the more like bottom one, that is when you have the problem
SARAH: Or like femme always has to receive, the femme can't… the femme can't be fucking you… who… why? Why?
KAYLA: Why? Why?
SARAH: Why? And I think it's interesting especially in the realm of like fan fiction and fandom, I just went back to this person's Twitter, it's unclear to me how this person identifies gender or sexuality or romantic identity-wise, I don't know, but if you look at the top 100 ships on AO3 every year, they do like a like a roundup, essentially, I would say at least 75% of them are MLM ships, they're achillean ships
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And there's always discourse about this, about how sapphic ships in particular are just like not as popular
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And this also goes to the fact that the people who… the largest consumer of fic tends to be women
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And so, I mean, there are a billion reasons why a woman may choose to read achillean fic over sapphic fic, but I think knowing that like 75% of the top 100 ships on AO3 are achillean and that a good majority of the people who read fic are women, statistically, now to be fair, if you're on AO3 you're probably a little, you know?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But statistically, a lot of those people are going to be straight women
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And so, if you think about being in these spaces and straight women who are interested in the yaoi
KAYLA: The what?
SARAH: I explained this of couple of weeks ago too, it's the it's the Japanese word for like achillean stuff
KAYLA: Oh, yeah, I remember that. To be fair, you never listen when I’m talking, so
SARAH: Yeah, no, that's super fair
KAYLA: So
SARAH: No, but I have to listen the second time around when I’m editing
KAYLA: Yeah, well, good, you gotta listen at some point
SARAH: But you could reasonably conclude that a lot of people who are into reading this type of fic are straight and possibly not queer at all and they're just straight women
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: So, then it's like okay, you're not actually a part of the queer community, you're welcome to hang out
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like, that's not a problem. But you are not even a part of this queer community and so if you are saying, “oh, this character always has to be a bottom in my mind” I don't read that as personal preference. Like, how can you separate that from heteronormativity? Like, how can you separate that from you bringing heteronormative ideals into this queer space?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: That's not to say that queer people don't also do this, because they do
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Because everyone is infected with heteronormativity
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But I think it especially rubs me the wrong way when it is coming from straight women particularly
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And the thing that really stood out to me about this interaction with this person is how defensive they were when I brought up the heteronormativity bit
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Because I think there's a way to read that tweet and say, “that's totally fair, I don't think that applies to me, but that's fair,” but they were immediately back on their heels
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And I think that says to me something about the mindset of people who think, okay, this character can only take it up the ass
KAYLA: Oh my God!
SARAH: Like, I’m sorry, like, it befuddles me, I don't understand how you think this thing could be so fundamental to the character if it's not related to your preconceived notions of the genders playing off of each other
KAYLA: Yeah. I mean there has to be a reason that you feel so strongly that…
SARAH: And what is it?
KAYLA: And what is it? And the most common reason I think you're right is who is more masculine and who is more feminine which like if that is something you… like, as a part, like, not as a fictional character, you as a person, as a sexual being are deciding in your relationships, this is my preference for topping or bottoming, whatever, and I happen to be more masculine or feminine or like I am a fem/lesbian and I happen to prefer masc lesbians, whatever, that as a personal preference there is no issue with that
SARAH: That’s fine
KAYLA: Like, when I said earlier, like, “oh, it's sad that these divides are there.” Like, I don't mean by that like you cannot have your own personal preferences, whatever
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Like, I don't personally like super like macho masculine men, whatever, that's like, it's fine, you know?
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: People can prefer whatever. But the problem is when you're then imposing that on other people of like, oh, it's weird that these two more feminine people are together, these more masculine people are together or oh, I’m looking at your relationship and I can't figure out the dynamic of like, oh, by your personality, I can't figure out who is who, that's the problem because what metrics are you using to figure that out?
SARAH: Right. Like, what do you mean the smaller character is the one using the strap on the muscle mommy? Who cares?
KAYLA: Who cares?
SARAH: And I think… it's kind of hard for me to articulate, but you understand what I’m saying, right?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I want you to explain to me what fundamental thing about these characters makes it so that you are so like disgusted when you see a different dynamic. I can understand maybe being like, “oh, I was hoping that this would have this dynamic based off of the characterization,” oh, whatever, whatever, whatever
[00:30:00]
KAYLA: Yeah. Like, if in your mind you're like, “oh, when I read these characters, I just assumed, if there was going to be a dynamic, this is what it would be.” I still have questions about that, like what made you assume that?
SARAH: What made you assume that?
KAYLA: I think that's just like an interesting thing to think about and reflect on personally to maybe like pick apart your own biases
SARAH: And that can be an interesting character thing in the fucking fic too
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like, hello!
KAYLA: But to feel so strongly about it, to then tell people what your preference is and then refuse to engage with anything else, like that is a really strong opinion to have about free media
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: I am not going to consume this type of extremely niche, let's be honest, like fan fiction you are like searching stuff out you are lucky to find good fan fiction for a lot of fandoms and then you're gonna narrow it even further because you care that much, why?
SARAH: And then if you don't like something instead of just closing the tab, you're gonna like make angry comments…
KAYLA: You have to complain about it
SARAH: And like complain about it on Twitter. I also… I forgot
KAYLA: She forgot
SARAH: It's gone
KAYLA: She forgot
SARAH: I got distracted because I pronounced ‘also’ a little bit weird and then the thought left my brain
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: I was like, I “oooolso”
KAYLA: I didn't notice it, if it makes you feel better
SARAH: I did
KAYLA: Well...
SARAH: Oh, also, another thing I said that I don't know where these tweets went, but I was basically… so, I told this person not to be… what's the word I’m looking for? Too extreme or explicit. But okay, here's the thing, if you're gonna say that you need to tag who is putting a dick where and like the dynamics there, what if one person thinks that this character should only be on the receiving end of oral sex, do you need to tag that dynamic?
KAYLA: I mean, at this point you need to just tag every word of the fic
SARAH: Right. And so, for me it's like, okay, well, where is the line? Okay, so if this is required, what about this? What about this? Do we need to tag their hair color? Like, if they dye their hair, like, oh, no, I was picturing this person with their blonde hair right now. Like, I don't…
KAYLA: No, it does… yeah, I think at that point you're really getting to a point like I said where you just need to write it yourself if you're gonna be that picky about the plot points
SARAH: Yeah. And another person responded to my tweet and was… we had a very cordial and perfectly fine interaction, where they just basically said like, “in my opinion the more tags the better”
KAYLA: Fair
SARAH: They said like, “dumb tags are welcome, it gives me more detail about the fics, so that I don't waste my time.” Like, this person said, “specifically, I might like dom bottom but another tag mentioning how mean they'll be helps me to avoid a fic I don't want to read.” Like, that's all super fair. So, they were like, “I just don't specifically enjoy little to no tags because sometimes the synopsis isn't doing a good job of telling me what's going on in the fic,” and they're like, “no shaming, but sometimes it's not like a synopsis,” you know?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And so, they said like, “we invest time in these works, so seeing the tags might be helpful just to make the experience better,” and I was like, “I think all that is totally fair.” Like, that's super valid
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I also think that over-tagging can be bad because it muddles the tags
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like, I have been in fandoms before that have had some chronic over-tagging problems, particularly with side ships. So, like they would tag every side ship and then a fic would show up in that ship's tag…
KAYLA: Oh, I see
SARAH: That is not primarily about it, to fix that, for additional tags, just put in OTP, colon, space, true and it'll fix that, by the way
KAYLA: Oh, thank you
SARAH: There is your details about AO3, AO3 hack. But like you can clog up the tags and that can be annoying, but like… I get wanting more tags but like… again, that doesn't…
KAYLA: That doesn’t mean that they're necessary
SARAH: It doesn't mean that it's required, it doesn't mean that it's bad etiquette not to tag it. Like, this shit is free, certain things may be annoying, but you're reading free novels
KAYLA: Yeah. And also, in paid novels they're also not doing this
SARAH: Yeah, they don't do that shit
KAYLA: Like, to me the like tagging… like I said I think certain things are required, I think fandoms, ships, trigger warnings, whatever, that to me is like, yeah, basic reading, because that's also information that like a traditional novel would provide
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: Everything else to me feels like just an incredible bonus that just like comes with how the community has built around fan fiction. Like, when you are reading a traditional novel, they are not giving you that kind of information
SARAH: You know, speaking of which, a trailer recently came out for a adaptation of a yaoi book that's going to be on Crave in Canada. I’m just saying that because, like, not sobriety but like I know what Crave is because like with my work
KAYLA: Great
SARAH: But this trailer came out and it's hockey gaze
KAYLA: Of?
SARAH: Like kind of like enemies to lovers hockey gaze
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: People eat that shit up, because you know what has always been very popular in terms of like RPF? Like, real people fiction, hockey players
KAYLA: Hokey. And I mean, they should be kissing
SARAH: They should be kissing. Hockey players, F1
KAYLA: Every time there's a sports on my TV, I am rooting for kissing
SARAH: Yep
KAYLA: That's all you hear in my house, it is, “kiss, kiss, kiss”
SARAH: They absolutely have to kiss. “Kiss, kiss, kiss.” So, I saw the trailer and I was like, “oh, that looks interesting, that looks pretty good, I’m not gonna lie.” But I was like, like, would it be worth reading the books? Like, I don't know. And I have a friend who after seeing the trailer ended up reading the first book. And so, I was like, “let me know how it is, I’m curious to know.” And they were like telling me and being like, “oh, they started hooking up very early,” and I was like, “oh, okay, that's interesting.” And then they were like, but then like later like there's a lot more like relationship development that like I really liked and so I was like, “okay, maybe I’ll give it a try.” And they were like, “but there definitely is smut.” So, I asked my friend, I was like, “okay, just so I can know, is it M smut or E smut?” And she was like, “oh, it's definitely E” and I was like, “okay, noted.”
KAYLA: Good to know
SARAH: But like I had to ask someone that because it is a novel and it doesn't have a rating that says E
KAYLA: Which we've talked about before, I really do think… I mean, and I’ve said this before on the podcast, I think it's a slippery slope, because then you start getting like anything that's gay is rated as E and then you have sensory issues
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But I really do think ratings for books would be so helpful because there is shit in the young adult section…
SARAH: We have them for TV and movies
KAYLA: There is shit in the young adult section that I am like, “that is… what!?” it really depends on what you think a young adult is
SARAH: Right, define young adult
KAYLA: Because if… like, some of this stuff I’m like, “that is not…” I understand that minors consume this media, but I don't think it should be marketed towards them, they can pick it up if that's what happens to them, but like…
SARAH: Right. And also, I think young adult I typically interpret that as like teenager
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Probably under 18
KAYLA: Yeah, but that is not what is in that section right now
SARAH: And there's a big difference between a 13-year-old and a 17-year-old
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: There's a big difference
KAYLA: Yeah. But I think going back we did an episode on this, like forever ago now, about like the rise of smut in books, like traditional novels and everything, but there's such a huge difference between like a closed-door sex scene, like a fade to black
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: And like a full-on M or E like in
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: You know?
SARAH: Well, this is an audio medium, they can't see what you just did
KAYLA: I did the… I put my finger in the hole. But, you know. But that's what I’m saying, it's like fan fiction is such a luxury in that… and so then to get all nitpicky and be like, it's not enough, like sure more is great
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: But like just shut up, it's free
SARAH: And it's not… like, that's… another thing I keep coming back to is like, who sticks dick in which orifice is not a trigger
KAYLA: It is also just… you already said this, but not indicative at all of the dynamic
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: Have you ever heard of a power bottom? Bitch!
SARAH: There's literally a term for it
KAYLA: A name for it. I don't know what the opposite of that… what's like a… a sad top?
SARAH: A pillow princess top?
KAYLA: Oh, pillow…
SARAH: It doesn't really work, it's a little bit harder just because of the mechanics
KAYLA: A princess top. There has gotta be something
SARAH: What's that like…
KAYLA: Amazing top
SARAH: Amazing top
KAYLA: Well, stone is different because that's about like whether you like I’ll give but I won't receive or like I’ll touch but don't want to be touched, that kind of thing, so I think that's a little bit different
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: What is the opposite of a power bottom?
SARAH: I don't know
KAYLA: A weak top?
[00:40:00]
SARAH: A weak top. But like you can also… you can be a bottom and you can be dom
KAYLA: Dom, domming, you can dom from the bottom, everyone, listen up everyone
SARAH: Also, just because you're bottoming, it doesn't mean you're physically underneath the other person
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Not to get into sex positions but like…
KAYLA: But there's a… listen, there's a lot of things that can be done
SARAH: Right. And I think… again, this goes back to what I said about… people don't understand the difference between top and bottom and dom and sub and switching and versing
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Because switching goes with top and bottom and verse goes with dom and sub
KAYLA: And I think that goes back to being a straight person problem
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Is you have these nice straight ladies getting into their gay porn and to them they do not understand that there's like… you can put the thing in the place but then also have a different dynamic, I think like…
SARAH: Yeah, it doesn't mean…
KAYLA: Your vanilla straight white lady with her sad husband who is insufficient in bed
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Is not gonna understand the levels of things that you're allowed to do
SARAH: Right. Well, and if you've only had straight sex and you've only had those interactions even if it's not like sex just straight interactions
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Those come with a level of inherent implied burden, you know? Like, there are existing expectations around what that looks like because of gender
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: When you strip that out, these people are just… they don't know how else it could work. So, then they start enforcing those same ideas of gender onto queer sex when many queer people view it as like, oh, anything can happen, like, “ooh, options”
KAYLA: Yeah, the baseline of like, oh, I’m straight. So, you just go with the gender norms is, yeah, the woman is the sub she's on bottom whatever the man is taking control, and it's like you don't… did you know that you don't have to do that? Ma'am!
SARAH: And it would be subversive for the woman to do otherwise
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: Whereas in queer sex it's not inherently subversive for the person who is physically smaller or more femme to top or to dom, you know? There's just a fundamental misunderstanding
KAYLA: That's just like a Tuesday night
SARAH: It's just a Tuesday night
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And it just blows my mind. And like I understand that me as a queer person in queer spaces I definitely understand this better than other people, but also, like, I’m sorry, as an aro-ace person who is sex-averse and like doesn't actually have any first-hand experience, like, how… why is it so easy for me to get it? And not you people?
KAYLA: Well, you maybe you just… maybe you have a more objective view of it. Part of me wonders if like… because when you talk about like, oh, 75% of the ships are like MLM, and most of the readers are women, to me that's women being like, “ah, I can't read ladies fucking, that's gay, but if I read men fucking…”
SARAH: Right, there's certainly a layer of that
KAYLA: Or is it because they as the woman are like, well, I identify more with this character and I am a bottom so they have to be a bottom so that I can like impose myself into this fic?
SARAH: I don’t know
KAYLA: And like pretend that it's not two men, it's one of these men and me, like, is that it?
SARAH: Okay, but then when you think about the mechanics that's absolutely not how it would be. If you just want to insert yourself into it, then read straight smut
KAYLA: I don't know girl, I’m just trying to find the answers
SARAH: There's plenty of straight smut out there
KAYLA: I’m just trying to find the answers
SARAH: I know. I just think there's so much sitting on our shoulders making us… marionetting us like little puppets and we need to calm the fuck down, we should only be marionetted like puppets if we consent to that
KAYLA: Yeah, I do think…
SARAH: It could be like a kink thing
KAYLA: Do you think that's someone's kink?
SARAH: Maybe
KAYLA: Like being tied up with little strings, being made into a puppet?
SARAH: Maybe
KAYLA: That sounds like a thing
SARAH: Listen, people like being tied up, I don't know man
KAYLA: I bet that's a thing
SARAH: I bet
KAYLA: I don't want to look it up, because I’m afraid
SARAH: Because then what else will you find?
KAYLA: Because then I’ll have to see it and I don't know if I’m ready for that, but happy for them
SARAH: Happy for them. Anyway. Do we have anything else to say?
KAYLA: No, I’m very interested to hear people's thoughts on this and whether anyone can provide you the answer you're looking for on like why…
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Because maybe there is a very valid reason out there
SARAH: Maybe
KAYLA: For like, no, this genuinely like triggers me and I can't be reading this, maybe there… you know, maybe there's something we're not thinking about, but
SARAH: But I feel like that situation it would have to be either very specific to the person reading it or very specific to the characters, and as I said…
KAYLA: Yeah, I don't think it would be a widespread situation
SARAH: It would have to be like a trauma-informed thing or a sexual identity-informed thing
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like, I am not comfortable with this
KAYLA: Yeah. And again, being uncomfortable with it is fine
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: I’m uncomfortable with perhaps most things, that does not mean I’m making it other people's problem
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: Being annoyed, like being disappointed, like, oh, getting 20k into a fic and then being like, “oh man, this isn’t what I hoped for,” that's fine
SARAH: Yeah, that happens
KAYLA: You can feel your feelings, not my fucking business what your feelings are
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: But that's fine
SARAH: Ugh
KAYLA: I’m still giggling that you got blocked because of this, it's so silly
SARAH: It doesn't surprise me, I’ve blocked people over less
KAYLA: That’s so funny, so funny, so funny to me
SARAH: Anyway, yeah, so that's what I have to say, do you have anything to add to that? Do you have any thoughts about how I ended up in this situation? Do you have any questions? Thoughts? Concerns?
KAYLA: Maybe some concerns
SARAH: Like what?
KAYLA: Like maybe we should be on the Twitter machine less
SARAH: You know, it did derail my evening in a way that I knew it was a bad idea
KAYLA: Yeah, yeah. I think your initial tweet like genuinely asking for information is fine, maybe once the person started disagreeing with you, we could have just left it there, once you realized you weren't gonna get the information you were looking for
SARAH: Oh, and at one point, they also told me, “clearly, you're not listening. So, you're not gonna take in anything, I say” and I’m like, “interesting”
KAYLA: Hmm
SARAH: Hmm
KAYLA: Hmm
SARAH: Hmm. Anyway, you don't have to tag who is the top and who's the bottom, that's so… you're welcome to, you are welcome to, if you want
KAYLA: I think that's great if you want to, I don't think it should be mandatory and I don't think people should be leaving hate comments if you don't
SARAH: And if you only want to read fic that has that tagged, great, then do that. And don't complain about getting a flavor of ice cream that you didn't like because you filtered all the other ice creams out, okay?
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: I was also at one point trying to extend that metaphor and realized it stopped working because it wasn't actually a good metaphor that they gave me
KAYLA: Yeah, no, I think… like, I said I think that's a fine metaphor for something as like broad and simple as genre but I don't think…
SARAH: Right. Because like… I was like, well, okay…
KAYLA: She's getting mad, she’s getting mad again
SARAH: I was like, okay, if you don't… the thing about fan fiction is that you don't have to label your ice cream, there are no FDA requirements
KAYLA: Yeah, that is fair
SARAH: About having to label your ice cream. So, that's not even a fic, because like with ice cream you would expect it to be labeled, but a fic, we don't got no FDA for fic
KAYLA: Yeah, we have to move on
SARAH: Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Kayla, what's our poll for this week?
KAYLA: Thoughts on heteronormativity in like how top/bottom dynamics are discussed, both in fic as we've been talking about or just like world
SARAH: In life. I’m also really curious about the thoughts of people who are not entrenched in fandom in the fic way
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like, what you think about this, like as an outsider like what you think is going on
KAYLA: I think if I was… I mean, I’m already a bit of an outsider, because I’ve been out of the fic game for a while, but I think the consensus from an outsider would be like, “shut up.”
SARAH: “Stop it.” Yeah. So… all right, that's our poll. Our other poll is, should I read the book ‘Heated Rivalry’ by Rachel Reid?
KAYLA: It sounds familiar
SARAH: Anyone read it before? Would you recommend it?
KAYLA: I haven't
SARAH: Here's the thing, is if I…
KAYLA: I’ve never read a single hockey romance, which is crazy, because they're like everywhere these days
SARAH: I’ve read hockey AU fics
KAYLA: Mm
SARAH: But not like the source material was hockey
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: You know? Here's the thing though, is that if I do get this book, it will take me three to seven years to read it
[00:50:00]
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Not to read it, I’ll read it in probably two days, but to get to it, it will take seven years, so
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: So, come back in seven years
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: Okay, you can… okay, what's your… so, you have… do you have a… tell me you your beefs and juices
KAYLA: Okay, my beef is dust
SARAH: Okay
KAYLA: I was at the Austin City Limits festival this weekend and it was weekend two, it's a two-weekend festival, it's just like basically the identical festival but they do it twice
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: And it's Texas. So, first of all, it was 90 degrees all day, every day
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: I do not know how I survived because I do not do so well in the heat
SARAH: You’re so brave
KAYLA: I’m so brave. And then it was weekend two, so, it's in a park but thousands of people had already been walking around in there so there's no grass left, just dirt
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: And so, this… my nose, the snot, black. The coughing, horrifying
SARAH: Like a black lung situation?
KAYLA: No, literally. My throat still hurts and it has been days. Like, there are videos from the festival like at night when it was just like lights and spotlights shining now, seeing the dust in the air, like it's just ungodly
SARAH: Damn
KAYLA: Not safe. Like most people had like bandanas on their faces, there was people like holding up signs that were like, “does anyone have an inhaler?”
SARAH: Oh my God
KAYLA: Bad times
SARAH: Oh, no
KAYLA: So, that's my beef. My other beef is that that thing I’ve been waiting for, still waiting, bitch!
SARAH: Unbelievable
KAYLA: And now I’ve had to get other people involved
SARAH: Unbelievable
KAYLA: To help me advocate for my waiting
SARAH: We love advocating for waiting
KAYLA: Yeah. My juice is I did see a lot of good people at the festival, that was nice, and I had some really good brisket
SARAH: Oh, okay, fun
KAYLA: Yep
SARAH: My beef is I was at the ER on Monday
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: I’m fine, I was just covered in hives and my hands were really swollen
KAYLA: So large
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: My favorite is when you sent… you like snapped me a picture of you clearly in a hospital and I texted you, “you good?” and you were like, “what do you mean?”
SARAH: No, that’s what you said
KAYLA: And I was like, “what do you mean, what do I mean?”
SARAH: No, you said, let me find this, you texted me the word, “ma'am.”
KAYLA: And I think that was pretty clear
SARAH: And I said, “what?”
KAYLA: But I think the ma'am was pretty clear
SARAH: And you said, “are you in a hospital?” and I said, “hehe”
KAYLA: Yeah, yeah
SARAH: Anyway, my juice, I was in Seattle over the weekend, I saw a K-pop, I ate a corn and then I became very itchy. I have a concert tomorrow, I’m gonna see the same K-pop and then the next day another concert where I would see the same K-pop except I can't because I already had Reneé Rapp tickets. So, they're not allowed to do anything interesting on day two
KAYLA: Yeah, God forbid. It's not like you'll have seen the show twice already
SARAH: I have so many problems
KAYLA: Right
SARAH: And hey, last year the blonde wigs was on day two. And if something like that happens again, I need to be there for it so that needs to happen day one
KAYLA: Yeah, but you'll probably get some good guests at Reneé
SARAH: That’s fair
KAYLA: Like, she'll probably have like celebs doing the like audience participation instead of just like people
SARAH: That's fair. My other juice is, I’m gonna show you… what the fuck man? Mother
KAYLA: Her eyes look not correct
SARAH: I think she's wearing… well, it's the lighting. She also might be wearing color contacts
KAYLA: There's something in her face that looks wrong
SARAH: Okay, well, fuck you, that's mother
KAYLA: The rest of her looks nice
SARAH: Fuck you, that's mother
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: It's a picture of Park Ji-hyo on the red carpet of the Victoria's Secret fashion show
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: That's all. Okay...
KAYLA: I have one more beef
SARAH: What?
KAYLA: What why is Kim Kardashian’s SKIMS marketing…
SARAH: Oh my God
KAYLA: Bush underwear, why are they doing that?
SARAH: Sorry, I just thought of a really funny thing that I haven't seen anyone say that I’m sure someone has but, my culture is not your costume
KAYLA: So, many people already said it, so many people.
SARAH: I haven't seen it but I just thought of it, it's so silly, so silly
KAYLA: Yeah. Can I tell you a bush joke that I have in my letter magnets in my home?
SARAH: Yeah, did bush do 9/11?
KAYLA: Yeah, my bush did 9/11
SARAH: Oh, okay. Is that is it?
KAYLA: Yep
SARAH: Did I guess it properly?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Well, okay
KAYLA: Well, it's not that Bush did 9/11, it's that my bush did 9/11
SARAH: Right, sure, okay
KAYLA: And my parents still listen to this
SARAH: Okay, thanks, what? What's next? What do I do?
KAYLA: No, one in my family… you know the other day I was talking about tentacle porn and I was like, “haha, my family listens to this,” no one said anything about it
SARAH: Wow
KAYLA: So, if they heard that, they left me alone
SARAH: They said, “mm, maybe it's something I could be interested in”
KAYLA: My sister like listens to this podcast with her baby, like my little nephew
SARAH: Uh-huh, he has so much to learn
KAYLA: And right now, he doesn't do words but one of these days…
SARAH: His first word is going to be ‘tentacle’
KAYLA: ‘Tentacle porn,’ I hope so, you can only dream
SARAH: That’d be like a pretty crazy first word just like sound and syllable-wise like tentacle, that's hard
KAYLA: Impressive, yeah
SARAH: Really difficult
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Anyway, you can tell us about your beef, your juice, your recommendations on a hockey yaoi on our social media @soundsfakepod. We also have a Patreon, patreon.com/soundsfakepod if for some fucking reason you think this is something worth giving your hard-earned money to
KAYLA: I wouldn’t
SARAH: Our $5 patrons who we are promoting this week are Mel McMeans, Meredith, Morgan I., Philip Rueker and Phoenix Eliot. Our $10 patrons who are promoting something this week are Purple Hayes who would like to promote the musician Vinther, Quartertone who would like to promote World Central Kitchen & Doctors Without Borders, Barefoot Backpacker who would like to promote their YouTube channel rtwbarefoot, SongOStorm who would like to promote a healthy work-life balance and Val. Our other $10 patrons are Alastor, Ani, Arcnes, Benjamin Ybarra, Clare Olsen, Danielle Hutchinson, Derick & Carissa, Elle Bitter, Eric, my aunt Jeannie, Johanna, Kayla’s dad, KELLER! bradley, Maff, and Martin Chiesl. Our $15 patrons are Ace who would like to promote the writer Crystal Scherer, Nathaniel White who would like to promte NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com, Kayla’s Aunt Nina who would like to promote katemaggartart.com, and Schnell who would like to promote accepting that everyone is different and that's awesome. Our $20 patrons are Changeling & Alex who would like to promote their company controlaltaccess.com, Dr. Jacki, Dragonfly, my mom and River who would like to promote… um, oh, I had a thing, what was it? What was it? What was it? I’m gonna remember it as soon as we stop this
KAYLA: I don't know girl
SARAH: They would like to promote remembering things
KAYLA: Ah
SARAH: Thank for listening… Oh, I know, they would like to promote, I don't know when I’m gonna edit this podcast. So, patrons, if you're listening to this on Saturday, good for me, frankly
KAYLA: Love that, love that
SARAH: Thanks for listening, tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears
KAYLA: And until then, take good care of your cows
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