Ep 29: Catcalls as Compliments
SARAH: Hey what’s up hello. Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl (I’m Sarah. That’s me.)
KAYLA: And a demi straight girl (that’s me, Kayla.)
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else that we just don’t understand.
KAYLA: On today’s episode: Catcalls as compliments.
BOTH: — Sounds fake, but okay.
*Intro music*
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod.
KAYLA: We're here.
SARAH: Apologies if the audio quality this week is weird. There's something wrong with my computer, so we have to record this on my phone.
KAYLA: But listen here, all I'm saying is if you want better audio quality, all you’ve got to do is slide a little money across the internet table.
SARAH: Slide a little money across the internet table.
KAYLA: And then we can get ourselves one of those little speaker things.
SARAH: A mic, do you mean? Do you mean a microphone?
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Okay.
KAYLA: What have we been up to Sarah?
SARAH: Well, before we get into this episode, we have a –
KAYLA: PSA?
SARAH: Yeah, a PS/PSA. So, in last week's episode, we were talking to our friend's mom about –
KAYLA: Sexuality.
SARAH: Yeah, kind of explaining stuff. We had someone email us and be like, hey, there are some things you said that I didn't feel too nice about. And so, we wanted to address that. We just wanted to say that we never intended for it to come off as sexuality being something that can be fixed, or diagnosed, or cured in any way. That was never our intention, we're very sorry if it came off that way.
KAYLA: And I know once we started talking about that with our friend's mom, once she started bringing up that kind of stuff, I was kind of – In my mind, I was like, ooh, here we go. Because that is a very touchy subject to bring up about the biology or the chemicals behind sexuality, because that makes it sound like you're trying to diagnose it.
It's a very touchy subject and so, I personally am glad we talked about it. I think it's important to talk about because it's so touchy and so many people are worried to bring it up. So, I'm glad we did talk about it. But on the other hand, I do realize that because of the type of subject it is, that there's no really good way to talk about it, and that we probably could have done a little bit better.
SARAH: Yeah, because I'm of the opinion that although I am curious to know if there is a genetic or biological reason for sexuality, I don't think we should ever be diagnosing sexualities or that we should be trying to change them. Because ultimately, the only person that can decide what your sexuality is, is yourself. No doctor, no tests, no nothing can decide that for you. And so, we're very sorry if we said anything that you guys didn't feel too nice about. We take responsibility for what we said too.
KAYLA: Yeah, definitely.
SARAH: If you want to talk to us about it, feel free to email us.
KAYLA: And if you want – I can't imagine that anyone would, but another episode kind of fleshing out that whole conversation, where we can go more in-depth and are able to be more sensitive about it, because we have more time and we're not dealing with a guest or whatever, let us know.
SARAH: Yeah. Also, we're still very glad that we had our friend's mom on, that was a really interesting conversation.
KAYLA: Yeah, I think it was a really good conversation to have because a lot of things she brought up were difficult things.
SARAH: Yeah. And nothing on any end was ill-intended.
KAYLA: No.
SARAH: But yeah, we just wanted to address that to make sure that y'all understood what we meant, and to apologize if that came off wrong.
KAYLA: And also, for those of you who might not have realized that there was anything wrong with that, now you know that if you go to have a conversation like that with someone, keep our mistakes in mind I guess.
SARAH: Yeah, it's a difficult conversation to maneuver around.
KAYLA: Hopefully, we taught you a thing or five. Speaking of deciding your sexuality, you know how I've been – I'm demisexual but I don’t know, I’ve been on my journey. Listen here, this past week I was like, wow I am so demi. I've been going out with this guy recently, I just started going out with him and it's the first time I've dated someone since I've been like, I think I'm demi. I figured out my deminess whilst in the middle of a relationship last time, but listen, guys –
SARAH: It's the first time you've been really properly dating someone.
KAYLA: Yeah, whilst knowing I'm demi. And listen you guys, do you ever just like, know? Because in that moment, I was like, oh my God, yikes.
SARAH: Don't yikes that. That is not a yikes
KAYLA: Well, not yikes but – So, anyway, life updates with me.
SARAH: Yep.
KAYLA: All right.
SARAH: Well, let's move forward.
KAYLA: All right.
SARAH: Kayla –
KAYLA: It's me.
SARAH: What are we talking about this week?
KAYLA: Listen here, catcalls.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Here's my thing because sometimes, even my dad has said this to me before about like, oh, just take it as a compliment. And here's the thing, you shouldn't, because that's some creepy guy or girl just screaming at you across the street and sexualizing you.
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: But you know what's weird?
SARAH: What?
KAYLA: Sometimes I'll talk about being catcalled with a friend who has never been catcalled, and I've noticed that people that don't get catcalled almost feel bad that they don't.
SARAH: Literally me. Because I’ve –
KAYLA: Because then they're like, am I not attractive enough to be rudely sexualized? So, it's really weird because you shouldn't take it as a compliment, but then you kind of are. It's so weird.
SARAH: So, I have very rarely in my life been catcalled, and only once have I been catcalled where I was by myself. And it is that weird thing of, am I not pretty enough to be objectified by you?
KAYLA: No, it's really weird.
SARAH: It's strange. But then, of course, the first time I was actually catcalled, I was actually very scared, because I was in Rome by myself. I was kind of lost and confused, and I couldn't find my hostel and I was so afraid. And I was like, have I been scammed? Because we almost got scammed one other time, and the friend I was meeting wasn't going to be there for hours. And so, I was just very afraid, like freaking out.
KAYLA: What did they say?
SARAH: I don't remember what they said, it transcended language though, you know?
KAYLA: Mmm, yes.
SARAH: So, I had crossed the street early and I should not have crossed the street early. And as soon as I saw the person, I was like, fuck.
KAYLA: Yeah, you know the kind of person.
SARAH: Mmhmm.
KAYLA: No, but it is really – because sometimes I'll bring up catcalling and I'll complain – I've not gotten catcalled a lot of times in my life, it's stupid because the times I've had, I've been with guys. And so, it's like, really, I'm with another man right now, and you're still?
SARAH: Yeah, because in the minds of a lot of guys who are uber-masculine, or trying to project their masculinity or whatever, the only person they respect is going to be another guy. And so, if you're with another guy, you would think that that would be the time that they wouldn't catcall you –
KAYLA: But no, they do.
SARAH: it's all fucked.
KAYLA: But sometimes I've brought it up after these incidences happen and I'll be like, oh my God, I just got catcalled or whatever and it almost feels to me like I'm humble bragging.
SARAH: Yeah, but that's so gross.
KAYLA: But that's so gross, and the fact that I think to myself, I don't get catcalled as much as other girls, it's like, oh, well, I must not be as attractive as them. So, even inherently I am taking it as a compliment or an insult that I'm not being catcalled, but that's so fucked up.
SARAH: Yeah, and for me, it's like – I know a lot of people are always like, well, girls don't ever, you know – they don't ever wear makeup, they don't ever dress for anybody else. And for me, that's super true because I'm not trying to attract people. So, there's no reason for me to want to have other people find me sexually attractive. But yet, I almost have this weird like, oh, am I not attractive enough for you to catcall me? Which is gross and disgusting.
KAYLA: No, it is.
SARAH: And anytime I have been catcalled it's grossed me out/freaked me out.
KAYLA: Yeah, but then after the fact – It's so sad that society has taught us –
SARAH: This horrible culture.
KAYLA: That our worth is decided by someone objectifying us.
SARAH: Oh, for sure.
KAYLA: And the fact that if I'm not objectified, then I'm not attractive enough to be grossly sexually objectified.
SARAH: Exactly.
KAYLA: So, it sucks, because people will tell you, they'll be like, oh, there’s this whole discourse around catcalls aren't compliments. Or some people will be like, oh, just take it as a compliment. And it's really hard because I inherently can't stop myself from kind of taking it as a compliment, in a way.
SARAH: Yeah, as a weird and gross convoluted way.
KAYLA: Definitely.
(10:00)
SARAH: But I think there are still so many people though, who – Even girls. Because we, even if society kind of gives us this mindset that they're in some way a compliment, we know ultimately that they're not. Or at least even if they're meant to be compliments, that's not how it ends up. But there are people, even girls, who legitimately think catcalls are compliments.
KAYLA: Yeah, no.
SARAH: And it's so hard to make them understand.
KAYLA: Yeah, you'll tell a guy, hey, you can't do stuff like that. And they'll just be like, well, I was just being nice.
SARAH: Right. I don't remember where I saw this explained, but someone was basically saying if you think about when young girls are catcalled by old men, right? So, old men who are married, this person may be young enough to be their grandchild. They're clearly not expecting to get any sort of relationship with this person, and yet they still catcall them.
And I think that's the situation where it's maybe clearest. Where it's like, this person is not trying to get anything out of this other than to just be like, oh, ha ha, you're cute. I'm going to make you as uncomfortable as humanly possible.
KAYLA: Yeah, just to get the satisfaction of making someone uncomfortable. Because it's what, cute when someone gets embarrassed?
SARAH: You're asserting your power, is what it is. And it's like, if you know, 100%, that you're never going to get anything out of you doing this, then the only reason you're doing it is for some weird internal something.
KAYLA: Have you ever seen a video where someone will catcall a woman, and the woman will then go up to them and have a conversation with them? And they get so uncomfortable, the catcaller.
SARAH: Because they don't expect for them to actually reciprocate or talk anything back. I've seen stuff like that, especially where they'll walk up and be like – I've seen ones where they walk up, and they kind of flirt back and the person is like, uuhh, because they weren't prepared for that at all. And then there are other times when they walk up to them and they basically ask them –
KAYLA: Why did you do that?
SARAH: And in both situations, they can't come up with answers.
KAYLA: Because they just do it. Because it's inbred in men in our society like it's an okay thing to do?
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: No, it's totally – Yeah, I don't know. It's really hard.
SARAH: But it is difficult to explain, especially if someone has never been catcalled, t's very difficult to explain what it feels like.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And as a woman, before I ever was catcalled, I could imagine what it felt like. But if you are a man, it's going to be a lot harder to imagine how uncomfortable and scary it can be.
KAYLA: Well, yeah. Because I think a lot of men don't realize, like – I was talking to, I think it was the kid I've been going out with, and I mentioned kind of jokingly, like, oh, I'm afraid of men. And he was like, what, do you expect everyone to assault you? And I looked at him and I said, yes. Because as a woman, especially because usually assaulters are people that you know closely, like our acquaintances or friends. It's like, yes, I am aware that any man that I know and am friends with, could assault me.
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: And then there's also the constant fear of when you're walking on the street and someone's walking behind you, that you're terrified. The other day, I could see someone's shadow behind me on the ground and it seemed like they were really close to me. And so, I started almost running home, and it was the middle of the day too, it wasn't even at night. And so, add on to that a man physically saying something super sexual to you, basically verbally assaulting you, when you already have the fear that someone could easily physically assault you. Especially like, we're small people.
SARAH: I’m not a big –
KAYLA: And I will fight you, but I am not physically large. Even more for me, I'm smaller than you and I’m like a noodle.
SARAH: Yeah, you're like the same height as me but you're –
KAYLA: I'm a stick.
SARAH: Yeah. And so, I know how to tackle people, but that doesn't mean that if you're 6′4" – I'm 5′4" –
KAYLA: I can't do anything.
SARAH: Yeah. I think a lot of times, I think that maybe I'm not careful enough walking around by myself, especially at night, because I often have headphones. Especially recently, I've been pretty much exclusively wearing headphones that go over your ears, so they block even more.
KAYLA: You can’t hear anything. If someone came up running behind me, I’d not hear them.
SARAH: I feel like though, I do have - brag, I guess - I have good instincts for when there's something wrong and when there's not. And so, there are times when I'm just walking around at night, even if I'm pretty much alone, and I feel totally fine. And then there are moments where I'm like, there's something wrong.
And even if there's not something wrong, just the knowledge that I'm in a situation where I think there could be something wrong, then I start paying attention. I have gotten many times freaked out by the shadow of someone behind me, where it's like, I feel like it's too close for me. And we live in a safe neighborhood.
KAYLA: Right.
SARAH: And so, I don't know, man. There have been times where I was walking, and this girl walked out of a house in front of me, and we were walking in the same direction and we were walking about the same pace. And I became very aware of how she might interpret me.
KAYLA: Oh, I'm always afraid that I'm scaring people when I'm walking behind them.
SARAH: Because I was like, okay, I'm not a guy but it could seem like I'm following her, right?
KAYLA: Yeah, I always am afraid that people think I'm following them.
SARAH: And so, a lot of times when that happens, what I will do is I will intentionally speed up to pass them so that they understand that I'm not following them, I'm just going the same direction.
KAYLA: Yeah, I've talked to guys before that are also very aware of that, and they'll realize they're walking behind the girl. And I have guy friends that have oftentimes intentionally crossed the street so they're not behind the girl, because they know they're probably freaking them out.
SARAH: Yeah, that's like, especially at night.
KAYLA: Yeah, it's like, well, good, it's good on you for doing that.
SARAH: But also, horrible that you have to do that.
KAYLA: But it's also horrible that we have to even think about that. And the fact that I carry mace around, even though it's technically illegal on campus for me to carry my mace around because it's a weapon. But it's like, what do want me to do?
SARAH: Well, I think a lot of times, what isn't understood about it is the fear that's associated with it. Because if people are like, well it was just a compliment, they're just complimenting you. But it's like, back to what we were saying, I could be overpowered fairly easily.
KAYLA: A catcall really, it could be an easy first step to assault. If someone at night catcalls you, you don't respond, they get mad that you're not taking it as a complement, you're not smiling, whatever. It's a very easy way to get you uncomfortable fast and get you in a situation that you're surprised by, and you don't have full control over
SARAH: Exactly, like the scenario when I was catcalled in Rome. It was broad daylight but there was nobody else around. And so, I got very afraid because I was like, would anybody know if something – If they had done something?
And then another thing was, I was looking for my hostel, and my hostel was just like – It was a nice hostel, but the lobby of the hostel was in a laundromat and I didn't know this going in. So, I got very confused because I couldn't find it, you know what I mean? But outside of the laundromat where the office was, there was a kid just sitting on the stoop, on his phone. And I wanted to try and stop right where he was to figure out if that was it, because on my phone that's where it said it was. But because that kid was just sitting there alone, I didn't want to stop in his eyesight. Because I was like, I don't really know where I am, I'm in a foreign city, I don't speak Italian, you know –
KAYLA: If he came up to you, you wouldn't be able to get rid of him.
SARAH: Exactly. He was just sitting there on his phone, I think he was someone who was staying at the hostel, and he was just kind of mooching off their Wi-Fi. But it was a situation where I was alone, and I did not feel comfortable stopping where he could see me, and that's horrible. And I was extra scared because I had just been catcalled, not by him but you know –
KAYLA: There was some other guy.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: It's something I think that men have a very hard time wrapping their mind around, because I think that even when men know that girls constantly have to worry about this kind of stuff, it's different than actually feeling this fear constantly.
SARAH: Because it's constant, you can't forget about it.
KAYLA: Yeah, if you're a woman you have to plan your day around, can I walk back at night? Who do I have to walk with? Do I have anyone to call? Because I have friends that will call me sometimes when they're walking home at night just to have someone to talk to, so they don't feel alone and they don't feel scared. And so, you have to constantly plan stuff around like, can I even get home safely?
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: And guys can do whatever the fuck they want.
SARAH: Yeah, our friend once was flying back here, and then she was going to go back to campus to where we lived. I was at my family's house at the time, I wasn't at our house. But her flight got super delayed and so, she didn't get back until two in the morning. And so, basically her only option of how to get home was by taking a taxi. And I literally had her on Find my Friends, and I was also texting her and I literally stayed awake until I knew she was home. Because I knew that it was the middle of the night, and she was just in this taxi with some random guy.
KAYLA: Yeah, taking an Uber by yourself, I think every time I get an Uber by myself, I am a little afraid.
SARAH: I've never done it.
KAYLA: I've done it a couple of times. I've never done it at night so that's made it better. But, because they're almost always men, I don't know that I've ever had a woman Uber or Lyft driver, which is a damn shame. Because I feel like if I had a woman driver, I'd be like, yeah. I saw a meme recently about the look you get when you have a female Lyft driver, and I was like, that's probably so true. Because it's like, I can't even take a safe way home and feel safe, because there's a man driving the Uber.
(20:00)
SARAH: I would rather walk like half an hour to get home than take an Uber by myself. Because if I'm walking home, I feel like I have control over – you know what I mean?
KAYLA: Yeah, but do you?
SARAH: I feel like I have more control.
KAYLA: But you don't.
SARAH: Also, I don't want to spend money. But if you're in somebody else's car, you can't get out of that situation. If you're walking by yourself, you can just fucking run.
KAYLA: Yeah, you can run, that's true.
SARAH: I feel like though, in my head, I'm the kind of person who would try and fight them. I don't know if, in a real-life situation, I would actually do that but I feel like –
KAYLA: I feel like I would.
SARAH: That's my instinct. But also, if I were –
KAYLA: I think that's everyone's instinct.
SARAH: Well, fight or flight though. I think I would fight but that might be wrong. I might just run. A lot of times in those situations, running is a better idea.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: So, our university on campus, they have these blue boxes, they have lights on them so you can see them.
KAYLA: And they're supposed to be wherever you're standing on campus, you should be able to see one of these.
SARAH: And basically, you hit the button, and it calls 911 for you and it sends you to the correct 911 person. Because sometimes if you call 911, it'll get confused because of campus, it'll direct you to the wrong people, but it will send you to the correct 911. And there have been times where I'm walking alone at night, and I've been between two blue boxes, and I'll be like, okay, which one's closer? Which one can I get to faster?
KAYLA: Well, I've never had that.
SARAH: I've done that.
KAYLA: I've never done that. You know what's scary though? Because our campus is very safe, it'll be places on campus that aren't safe, are technically not on campus. Because our university is integrated with a city, it's not a blocked-off thing, there's a group of homeless people, or I don't know that they're homeless, but they always sit on the street and ask for money. And there are two places on the walk home, there's one next to the Walgreens, and then there's one by the CVS. And it's always guys –
SARAH: There's that one woman who stays by Walgreens, but she's not there in the winter. She's only there –
KAYLA: Yeah, but I've gotten catcalled, one of those – It was the guy by Walgreens, one of the ones that catcalled me when I was with a guy and another girl, and he catcalled us by saying, "Oh, how are you not putting a ring on those two?" It literally didn't even make sense. I was like, I'm with a group and you're doing this? Whatever.
And then there are certain times of night, if you're late enough at night, they're gone already. But if you're just at the right time of dark out at night, and you walk on that side of the street, you're going to have to pass them.
SARAH: And that's the thing I don't understand, that's why the route I always try to take – There's a certain route that I take to get to campus and there are two reasons I take it. One, because it involves the fewest number of stoplights, so I can just jaywalk.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And then, the other reason is because you don't pass any of those people. And I know that sounds bad to be like, I don't ever want to see homeless people –
KAYLA: But they're not just homeless people. I've seen the guys by CVS, they often have signs that are like, suck my toe for $1 or I'll suck your toe for $1. We were walking back from the state game last semester, and they jumped out of garbage cans and scared us on the street.
SARAH: I was about to say that. Because also, in Ann Arbor, they have very good programs for homeless people. And so, when you see homeless people that are year after year, sitting in the same spot, it’s the same people. You have to wonder, what are they really doing?
KAYLA: Well, they work in networks, because if you notice –
SARAH: Oh, yeah.
KAYLA: The homeless people, they always – If it's a different person, they're still in the same spot. And there's this, I don't know if you've ever been there, it's a little bit off-campus but there's this park and it's next to a police station I feel like, and it's this little concrete park, there's this bunch of tables. But that's where the homeless people sleep at night and if you go in there, they're shooting heroin, they're doing all this stuff.
SARAH: Really? Where is that?
KAYLA: If you walk from here, you're going to walk to Blank Slate –
SARAH: I don't know where that is. I mean, I know where it is, but I've never been there.
KAYLA: t's like, that way.
SARAH: I didn't know that.
KAYLA: Yeah, it's down in like, real people downtown. Not like, student downtown. Yeah, and it's a really nasty place to go. And I had someone that was volunteering, and they were talking to some firefighters, with some police officers about that area. And they were like, yeah, you don't want to go down there. Because it's in the middle of the city and it's this little park that's meant to just be like, people can hang out. But that's what the homeless people sleep at night, and shit goes down there.
SARAH: And Ann Arbor is a really safe city, so imaging going somewhere that's less safe.
KAYLA: You have to wonder – So we know exactly where the homeless people are that we have to worry about. Do you think our guy friends know where exactly those people are?
SARAH: I don't know. Because going back to that one time we were walking back from the football game – There are businesses that that group of homeless people sit by, they put their garbage out on the street certain days, and they have garbage cans. And so, we were walking back from a football game, there were a lot of people around because we were all walking back from the football game.
KAYLA: And it was at night.
SARAH: And you know, our stadium holds 110,000 people.
KAYLA: Plus, there was like a ton of random people there just in Ann Arbor, walking to the bars.
SARAH: Exactly. And it was a rivalry game.
KAYLA: Yeah, so there's just a ton of people in town, students everywhere, alumni everywhere, like crazy.
SARAH: So, it's night-time, but we're not alone out there, there are plenty of people around. And we're walking past and there was one homeless guy sitting next to the buildings, and your instinct is to kind of walk a little bit further away from them, right? Because you're trying to avoid eye contact. And so, basically, they were corralling, they would have them sitting by the wall, so then you'd walk a little bit further away from them, and you'd be closer to the trash cans. And this guy, literally, jumped out of the trash can –
KAYLA: Like, at us.
SARAH: He popped out and he was holding, if I remember correctly, it was a fishing pole.
KAYLA: Yeah, I think it was a fishing pole.
SARAH: And it freaked us out. I think it was all girls, I don't think our male roommate was with us.
KAYLA: I honestly don't remember, but we all screamed.
SARAH: But we all freaked out.
KAYLA: And then quickly walked away.
SARAH: And like, kept walking.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And it's like, that – I don't care who you are, I don't care if you're homeless. If you're going to do shit like that, you are preying on people intentionally, you are trying to scare people.
KAYLA: And also, you're lucky that someone's not punching you or whipping out a pepper spray. Because I've talked to friends before, and they have been like, one of my biggest fears about walking on campus is that a friend of mine will come up behind me when I'm wearing headphones and will grab my arm to say hello, but I won't hear them, so they'll just grab me and I'll turn around and punch them.
Because especially if it was someone with man hands and they just grabbed me, I would freak out. And so that's why I always tell people, don't do that to me, don't just come up to me and surprise me when I'm walking down the street, because I don't know what I'll do, I'll freak the fuck out.
SARAH: There was one time I was walking back from class and our roommate, our female roommate, she had an exam and so she happened to be walking back at the same time I was walking back from the class. She was on the other side of the street and she realized it was me and so she jaywalked, she crossed the street, not at a crosswalk, and kind of started walking with me. But she didn't say anything, because she didn't feel super good about the exam she had just taken, so she didn't say anything. But I didn't realize it was her.
KAYLA: Yeah, you just saw someone crossing the street.
SARAH: I just saw someone crossing the street and walking directly next to me, and I had a moment of fear. And then I sort of glanced to try and see who it was and I realized it was her and I was like, holy shit, you scared the crap out of me. And she didn't mean to do that -
KAYLA: No, but that's just what it's like being a woman, you can't do shit like that.
SARAH: Yeah, because if someone starts walking next to you, I'm going to panic. Because –
KAYLA: Like, what are you doing?
SARAH: Who knows what they’re doing?
KAYLA: What are you doing next to me? Get right out of here.
SARAH: Right, exactly. So, that's fun, this took a turn.
KAYLA: We love it. We love it. But how fucked up is it then, that even after all that and how scared you get when you get a catcall, you feel like shit if you don't get one?
SARAH: Yeah, I know.
KAYLA: There are people I know that have never been catcalled, and when I talk about being catcalled, you can see in their face that they're kind of taking it hard, that they're thinking to themselves, what's wrong with me?
SARAH: It's because society tells us that female worth, it's only valued by how men objectify them.
KAYLA: Bull – Uhhh.
SARAH: So, this is going to become a problem in a month, lovely listeners, but I'm going to Los Angeles next month.
KAYLA: Oh my God, yeah.
SARAH: And, you know, Los Angeles rent is extraordinarily expensive, but I'm a broke college kid, I can't afford to be dropping, you know, $2,000 a month on rent. Especially if I still have my house here that I'm going have to sublet to someone, and I likely won't get full rent out of that person so I'll be paying –
KAYLA: If anyone is listening who wants to sublet, let us girls know.
(30:00)
SARAH: Yeah. So, basically, you are kind of faced with the decision of – You have to find the balance of being in a safe neighborhood, and being in a cheap neighborhood. And so, I'm going to be starting the apartment hunt very soon and it's like, what do you do? Because I know my parents, if it were between having a safer area or a cheaper area, I have confidence that my parents would be like, we would be willing to give you more money to be in a safer area. But not everyone has that privilege.
KAYLA: But also, that's a very privileged thing to have.
SARAH: Exactly.
KAYLA: And that's wonderful of your parents, but not everyone has that privilege.
SARAH: Yeah, for sure. And so, it's just like, well, what am I going to do?
KAYLA: Yeah, the place I'm interning this summer is still in Michigan. I'm working for a nonprofit that does economic stability, because the area I'm going to be going to is basically like a second Flint, they're not doing well.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: The city that I'm going to be working in, when I went to interview there I was driving through the city and it's not cute, it's not great. And so, it's like, I was talking to people and luckily, my internship is setting me up with housing, they're going to let us live in a community college. But I was talking to people and they were like, don't live in the city. I know you're going out there, don’t – Live somewhere outside of the city, don’t do that.
SARAH: And it's horrible that you have to be like, don't live here because you might get raped. That's just horrible. But also, regardless of where you live, you still have the chance of getting raped.
KAYLA: Yeah, it doesn't even matter if you're living in a city or not. You can live in the smallest town ever and it's your neighbor that you know super well.
SARAH: Because most people who are raped, are raped by people that they know. Which is terrifying to think that we have all this fear of catcalling, when really the biggest –
KAYLA: The people you should be afraid of, are the people that are closest to you.
SARAH: And that's terrifying.
KAYLA: That's terrifying, because then I'm starting to think about the guys I know and I'm like, which one of them would be the one that does it?
SARAH: And that’s horrible.
KAYLA: And that's a horrible thing to say, to think about which of my really good guy friends would assault me? But it's also like –
SARAH: If you're one of our male friends listening to this –
KAYLA: We’re not saying –
SARAH: We’re not @ing you.
KAYLA: I’m not @ing any of you, I’m just saying –
SARAH: It's something you have to think about.
KAYLA: It is.
SARAH: It's a fear you have to have. I think that most if not all of the male friends I have, I would never anticipate that they’d do anything.
KAYLA: I'm not worried about any of the guy friends I have, but it's like –
SARAH: But at the same time, it’s like –
KAYLA: But should I be? I don't know.
SARAH: Statistically –
KAYLA: Statistically, we should be worried.
SARAH: Yeah, but knowing the people I know, I see no real reason to be worried. But that's what a lot of people think.
KAYLA: Yeah, that's what everyone thinks.
SARAH: So basically, if you're a guy, just be aware.
KAYLA: Yeah, be aware that a lot of times, it's not you specifically. If you think someone seems afraid of you, and you're feeling bad about it, It's like, not you, it’s society.
SARAH: Yeah, and so as much as it's stupid to be like, hey, you should be aware of how you might be making women feel if you're following, or going in the same direction on the street, or that sort of thing. As stupid as it is to have to ask you to do that, we have to do so much shit – We have to do shit to avoid –
KAYLA: Yeah, so it's the least you can do is make sure you're not coming off as a creep to your friends, or people on the street.
SARAH: Yeah, and it's one thing if it's broad daylight and you're following someone, but you're very clearly headed toward campus. If it's 10 in the morning, and I'm walking to class, and there's someone following me, I'm going to assume they're going to another class somewhere else. It's very situational. But if I were walking home at 10 o'clock at night, and there was someone who appeared to just be following me –
KAYLA: I'd be like, ah ha ha, sir.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: The amount of stories I've read too about like, a guy will be creeping on some girl at a party or a bar, and some girl that she doesn't even know will come up to her and just give her a random name, and be like, oh my God, we're about to leave, are you okay? Let's go. And they’ll be complete strangers and the girl will just be like – I read a story recently where this girl was with her boyfriend and they were fake fighting or something, and some girl came up to her and was like, oh my God Karen, let's go. And she was like oh no, it's totally fine.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: But the fact that that has to happen, and that people have to be on guard for their friends that are girls at parties –
SARAH: You have to watch out for other girls, man.
KAYLA: Watch out for the girls. And I'm so glad that girls do that, and my guy friends do that. But then, the fact that you have to is like –
SARAH: I'm also then faced with the question of, I'm very non-confrontational, I'm kind of like a shy scaredy-cat in a lot of situations. And so, I'm always kind of faced with, if I saw something like that happen, would I have the guts to walk up to that girl and try and help her? And that's a horrible thing to contend with. I know I should, but would I?
KAYLA: You also have to worry about your own safety.
SARAH: You do have to worry about your own safety.
KAYLA: For another guy going up to – There's a chance they could get a fight or whatever, but it's not as scary as you're putting yourself also in that situation, and now you both could be in danger.
SARAH: Exactly. And you also have to – If there's a girl in what appears to be a scary situation, it could be a stranger and so, whatever you say could help the girl get out. But if that person's not a stranger, and if you say the wrong thing to that girl, that guy is going to realize that you don't actually know her.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And they're going to be like, well – you know what I mean?
KAYLA: Like, what the fuck, yeah.
SARAH: So, that's always another weird correlating, corollary fear that goes with that. You want to help people, but when is helping people going to backfire on both of you? Especially if there's more than one guy. Because if there's like three guys and one girl, you want to help that girl. But with that said, that still puts three guys versus two girls.
KAYLA: Yeah. I mean, we're saying guys and girls here.
SARAH: Because that's generally –
KAYLA: What it would be.
SARAH: Yeah, that's not to say that it couldn't be the other way around. Or it can be guy and guy or girl and girl.
KAYLA: Yeah, completely. I think that's just what we've personally experienced.
SARAH: Yes, and that's kind of the stereotypical, most common sort of deal.
KAYLA: So we don't mean to be –
SARAH: It's not that girls can't be predatory at all –
KAYLA: Because they can be.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: That's just what we personally experience.
SARAH: And then sometimes I'm like, I see a guy who's kind of freaking me out and they're not white, I'm like, am I being racist?
KAYLA: Yup.
SARAH: Yeah, that's a good one.
KAYLA: I was walking home with someone the other day, like 11:30 at night. And there are these two cars pulled over, and one guy was out of his car talking to this other guy and I was like, this looks sketchy. So, the whole time we were walking by, I was kind of looking at it. But the guy that was out of his car talking to the other guy was Black and so, I was like, am I just being racist, or is this a weird creepy situation?
SARAH: Exactly.
KAYLA: Like, what am I doing here?
SARAH: And sometimes I have that where I'm like, am I being racist? But other times just based off of the vibes I get off of people, if I see like, maybe there's a Black guy and a white guy, they're not together but they're both walking towards me. Just based off of vibes I get off of people, I might be more afraid of the white guy.
KAYLA: Well, the thing is, statistically, we should be more afraid of the white guy.
SARAH: We should be more afraid of the white guy.
KAYLA: Statistically.
SARAH: But there's also this just ingrained racism that our country puts in us.
KAYLA: Yeah, we're totally, inherently, implicitly racist. No matter how we like it, we're probably going to have that bias because of how we grew up.
SARAH: As white people, no matter how good our community was or how good our parents were, there's going to be –
KAYLA: There's going to be some type of bias, even if it's just because of what other people in society are doing.
SARAH: It's good that we're aware of it though.
KAYLA: But statistically, we should be afraid of the white guy, not the Black guy.
SARAH: Exactly. And society will tell you that you should be afraid of the Black guy.
KAYLA: But if we look at what actually goes on, it's either equal or it should be the white guy.
SARAH: Exactly. Again, this is all just implicit bias that our country has. We in no way mean to say that Black people are going rape you because there's something with – That's absolutely not what we are saying.
KAYLA: But if you just look at how the news covers it, the news covers more Black criminals than white criminals. And if you look at the stats, there are actually more white criminals but because of how the news covers it, it makes it seem like there are more Black criminals.
SARAH: If you look at incarceration rates, so many more Black people are incarcerated.
KAYLA: Yeah, the stats don't match up.
SARAH: But it doesn't match up with what actually happens.
KAYLA: That's why, that's another reason why the stereotypes are so rampant.
SARAH: Yeah. I have just this weird awareness where sometimes I'm like, am I being racist? But other times I'm like, oh, I'm definitely more afraid of this white guy. I don't know man, you just get vibes off of people too. Sometimes, it's just like –
KAYLA: That's a creepy guy.
SARAH: Just got to trust your gut, man. Why is it like this?
KAYLA: I'm really hungry.
SARAH: Kayla, that's unrelated.
KAYLA: But I have to tell you, I'm so hungry.
SARAH: Why did you not eat?
KAYLA: I ate cereal earlier.
SARAH: Oh my God. Alright, that was –
KAYLA: I'm driving to Chicago in a couple of hours.
SARAH: Oh, yeah, you are.
KAYLA: And me and roommate Miranda were like, Pretty Woman the Musical. So, the movie Pretty Woman, bomb movie. If you haven't seen it, please watch it.
SARAH: I haven't seen it.
KAYLA: It's one of my favorite movies. They’re making a musical out of it and it's in previews in Chicago right now. And me and Miranda were like, hey, a couple of weeks ago we talked about seeing it, and driving around Chicago. But then we were like, oh, we have stuff to do. But then some of our stuff got moved around, so yesterday, me and Miranda were like hey, the tickets are like $30, maybe we'll just drive to Chicago tomorrow. So, we are.
(40:00)
SARAH: You know, it's interesting, when we were in Chicago that one time, we left at 5 in the morning to come back home. And none of my alarms are going off walking around in Chicago at 5 in the morning, which was interesting because you would think, in a big city –
KAYLA: But it was so empty.
SARAH: It was so empty. And you would think that the emptiness would freak me out –
KAYLA: It was like, it was pretty.
SARAH: But it wasn't, it didn't. There have been other times where I have been in another city in broad daylight, and there have been people all around me and I've had alarms going off.
KAYLA: I think there's something about early morning though, because late at night you know, like, hey, it's late at night, that's usually when stuff happens. But you don't hear about stuff happening at the crack of dawn usually.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: It's just so peaceful. It was very peaceful.
SARAH: It was very peaceful.
KAYLA: How romantic.
SARAH: But yeah, just sometimes your alarms go off, and sometimes they don't.
KAYLA: Yeah. I mean, sometimes they definitely should be, and you're just like –
SARAH: Yeah, I remember last winter, me and my sister and my mom and my grandma were seeing this ballet, because it was part of their Christmas present to my mom and my grandma. And the place we were seeing it was this theater that's smack dab in the middle of campus, it's in the midst of everything. It's maybe 9-9:30 at night and we need to go get the car, because it was a pretty long walk, my grandma has two fake knees, it was icy, we didn't want to make her walk all the way back to my house. And so, I was going to go run and get the car, and then come back and pick them up. And it's like, 9:30 at night, it's a Friday night, there are people everywhere and my mom was like, are you going to be okay going by yourself? And I was like, yeah, I'm fine.
KAYLA: I do it all the time.
SARAH: I was like, mom, I have class till nine o'clock sometimes, like weekly. I was like, this is totally normal for me. And I wasn't at all freaked out, but she was freaked out for me, because it was an environment that I was very familiar with but not one that she was. And so, she was freaking out for me, her daughter, for my safety at 9:30 at night.
KAYLA: Yeah, I've had times, this kid I've been recently dating, a lot of times he'll walk me home even from across campus. And he always jokes oh, Ann Arbor is such a dangerous place. And I always look at him and be like, yeah, fucking bullshit. Like whatever, you don't actually have to walk me home if you didn't want to. But if I stop and think about it, I'm like, yeah, something could happen, I don't know.
SARAH: So, I personally didn't do this but my sister applied to a school that was in Detroit. And I know people who go to that school who live in Detroit, and they live in campus housing, it's perfectly safe, they're fine. But my parents basically said that if my sister decided to go to that school, they were going to make her commute from home, because they did not feel comfortable having her live in Detroit.
KAYLA: My mother got a full ride to Wayne State. It's a college in the middle of Detroit.
SARAH: Yeah, that's the one.
KAYLA: Her dad would not let her go.
SARAH: That's crazy.
KAYLA: She went to MSU instead.
SARAH: And it's horrible because there's also a layer of racism with that.
KAYLA: But also, I don't know that it was totally racism, because he knew a lot of people in the mob.
BOTH: (laugh)
KAYLA: And so, it might have been a mob thing.
SARAH: Not a gang thing, just a mob thing?
KAYLA: Well, yeah. It was racist against his own Italian heritage, it might have been an Italian mob situation.
SARAH: But then there's also that weird line of, when is this just fearing for my safety and when is it racist?
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Because obviously, whenever people are like, afraid of the city of Detroit, or my parents being afraid of my sister living there, they're not thinking, oh, it's unsafe because there are Black people there. That's not what they're thinking.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: But there is that level of like, it can be very unsafe there and the population is majority Black. At what point do those things converge? And it's racist but also, it's –
KAYLA: But also, Detroit isn't very safe.
SARAH: It's getting better.
KAYLA: It's definitely getting better. Detroit's getting a lot – if you actually go downtown, it's really pretty now, and a lot of businesses are down there.
SARAH: Detroit's doing better.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Detroit has a really bad rap, though and a lot of it is because there's a lot of Black people there, and it's so horrible.
KAYLA: You know what's funny is Flint is way worse than Detroit now, but people –
SARAH: Well, that's another issue with the Flint water crisis, a lot of the reason it wasn't addressed is because –
KAYLA: It's the only reason it wasn't addressed. Because the population, the people it's affecting are Black people and no one cares.
SARAH: Exactly, there are parts of Flint that are majority white and those areas aren't really being affected by the water crisis.
KAYLA: Apparently, there's a Netflix documentary out about Flint and after it came out, a bunch of people donated money to Flint. How did we get here?
SARAH We really – This turned into a conversation about racism.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: If we said anything that was like problematic, we're very sorry.
KAYLA: We're a couple of white girls –
SARAH: We're white.
KAYLA: We realize that –
SARAH: I like to think that we're pretty woke, but I'm also a white girl from the suburbs.
KAYLA: And I'm a white girl from a town that's 99% white.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: So, I realize that while I intend to say good things, that a lot of times the things I say come out very wrong.
SARAH: I come from a much more diverse area than Kayla does, but with that said, it's still mostly white people. And it's still mostly middle-class white people.
KAYLA: Yeah. Oh, my town is middle class. Literally look it up on Wikipedia, 99% white. It's absolutely bonkers.
SARAH: So, apologies if we said anything that was insensitive. We did not mean it.
KAYLA: We're just white, and we're sorry about it. I was telling someone the other day I was like; white people suck. And they were like, we're both white and I was like, I know.
SARAH: I know.
KAYLA: And we suck.
SARAH: Yeah, just again, to reiterate.
KAYLA: We didn’t mean it.
SARAH: I do not think that Black people are just going to rape everybody, and I don't think that Black people are the reason –
KAYLA: Who I do think is going to rape everybody is just men in general.
SARAH: Yeah, I don't think Black people are the reason that Detroit is unsafe, it's so much more.
KAYLA: It's the Italian mob, you guys.
SARAH: Oh, my God.
KAYLA: Just saying, my grandpa was asked to be in the Italian mob, so I could be in the mob right now if he had played his cards right, is all I'm saying to you guys.
SARAH: Oh my God. Yeah, I'm sorry. Okay. What’s our poll?
KAYLA: Are you racist? Are you part of the Italian mob? I don't want to do that. What if the Italian mob found me?
SARAH: I don't know.
KAYLA: That would be scary, I don't want that.
SARAH: Okay, how about this? This a sad poll. We could do it about like, okay, so I'm a girl and I've been catcalled. I'm a girl, I've never been catcalled. I'm a guy, I've been catcalled. I'm a guy, I’ve never been catcalled.
KAYLA: I think that would be interesting.
SARAH: Yeah. Horribly sad, but –
KAYLA: The polls have been pretty sad recently. Why is it so warm in here?
SARAH: I don’t know Kayla, but they can’t feel the warm so maybe you we should talk about things that are more tangible to our listeners.
KAYLA: Like money.
SARAH: Not yet, wait. You can find that poll on our Twitter @soundsfakepod, you can also find us on Tumblr soundsfakepod.tumblr.com or you can email us at soundsfakepod@gmail.com. We’ve gotten three emails –
KAYLA: Three. We got two emails in one day –
SARAH: Within twenty minutes of each other.
KAYLA: And then one two days later, and honestly you guys –
SARAH: It’s great.
KAYLA: I almost cried because some of the emails were super sweet and nice –
SARAH: We have spent so long crafting responses.
KAYLA: I was literally walking home from class and reading them, and I actually almost cried.
SARAH: Kayla texted me, it was very dramatic. But yeah, anyway, Kayla where can they listen to us try to not be racist?
KAYLA: Oh I thought you were telling me to try to not be racist as I told them where to listen, and I was like, I don’t know how I could make this racist.
SARAH: No, no, I mean us trying very hard not to –
KAYLA: Be a racist. You can listen to us on iTunes, SoundCloud, Stitcher Radio, Castbox, Overcast. Literally anywhere you find podcasts, we’ll be there. Leave us a review or a comment, it would be super neat, it would help us out.
SARAH: Yay.
KAYLA: Yay.
SARAH: Also, if you’re from somewhere that’s not the United States, and you have a very different experience, or even if you are from the United States and you have a different experience with catcalls, let us know.
KAYLA: I’m curious to see cultural differences.
SARAH: Do let us know. You can also find us – Find us? Well you can find us on Patreon –
KAYLA: We are there.
SARAH: patreon.com/soundsfakepod, if you’d like to donate some money, we will gladly take it.
KAYLA: So we can not have to record on a phone.
SARAH: We have our $5 patrons; we have Jennifer Smart, you can find her by looking up Lehen Productions on YouTube. We also have Asritha Vinnakota, you can find her on Instagram @asritha_v. We also have Austin Le. Did he change what he wants to –
KAYLA: It’s Quidditch.
SARAH: Quidditch, oh right. So we’re out here on the Michigan Quidditch team, Austin Le is also on that team. We’re currently trying to raise money to go to Nationals and Austin – Okay, I’m the fundraising chair, so I’m in charge of the money raising and the lovely Austin has chosen –
KAYLA: To use his promoting power –
SARAH: To promote our fundraiser.
KAYLA: Our Quidditch fundraiser.
SARAH: You can find it by going to youcaring.com/michiganquidditch2018.
KAYLA: You can also – If you just look up Michigan Quidditch on Facebook or Twitter or Instagram, it’s there and you can probably find it easier. I run our social media for Quidditch.
SARAH: I just threw a lot of letters at you verbally, I’m not sure if that was helpful at all.
KAYLA: I don’t know that they’d give us that money anyway.
SARAH: So thanks Austin for promoting a thing that we also –
KAYLA: Anyway.
SARAH: I mean, I wouldn’t be like hey, we’re going to use our podcast to promote everything we do, but also I also appreciate that Austin did that. We also have a new patreon – patron, whatever.
KAYLA: Yay.
SARAH: His name is Drew Finney, but he –
KAYLA: He sent us a lovely email.
SARAH: He did send us a lovely email, but he hasn’t told us what he wants us to promote yet.
KAYLA: So I’d like to promote that he’s great, and we stalked his Twitter, and it seemed great.
SARAH: That’s good. So Drew, if you’re listening, we sent you an email.
KAYLA: If you’re listening, we love you.
SARAH: So let us know what you want us to promote.
KAYLA: He reminds me of a friend we have here called JD.
SARAH: Oh, that’s fun.
KAYLA: His little Twitter picture.
SARAH: No one will have any idea what that means.
KAYLA: No.
SARAH: Except for maybe Asritha. We also have a $10 patron, her name is Emma Fink, you can find her on YouTube by looking up Emma T Fink.
Thank you for listening, tune in next Sunday/Monday, we’re trying our best, for more of us in your ears.
KAYLA: And until then, take good care of your cows.