Ep 367: Aromanticism and Asexuality at Work
SARAH: Hey, what's up? Hello! Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl, (I'm Sarah, that's me.)
KAYLA: And a bi-demi-sexual girl, (that's me, Kayla.)
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand.
KAYLA: On today's episode, ‘Aspecs at Work.’
BOTH: Sounds fake, but okay.
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod.
KAYLA: It is 11:59 A.M., I have so much energy.
SARAH: And it is also 11:59 A.M. for me, we're in the same time zone.
KAYLA: Can you even imagine?
SARAH: Not in the same state…
KAYLA: We're about to be in the same state.
SARAH: But we're not podding from the same state.
KAYLA: I know.
SARAH: But tonight, we will be in the same state.
KAYLA: It true
SARAH: Of delusion, am I right, ladies?
KAYLA: LOL.
SARAH: Hi, everyone. Good morning, good day. Good time zone.
KAYLA: Mm, good time zone.
SARAH: How is everyone?
KAYLA: I have a headache.
SARAH: Mm
KAYLA: I haven't eaten really a solid meal today.
SARAH: I haven't had a protein.
KAYLA: Me either. Actually, I've only had fruit today in solid and liquid form.
SARAH: Oh, good. I had a banana and a corn muffin.
KAYLA: I don't like a corn muffin.
SARAH: Okay…
KAYLA: Just sharing. I had a banana and a smoothie with… I don't remember, fruits and energy powder.
SARAH: Oh, she has energy. Well, do we have any housekeeping? The housekeeping is that we will be doing winter break soon, but we haven't talked about when.
KAYLA: Yeah, that's true, but soon we won't be here.
SARAH: We can't pod on Wednesday next week, by the way.
KAYLA: Okay, good to know.
SARAH: Or the following week, actually.
KAYLA: Should we just quit?
SARAH: Maybe. I'm going to be at a concert with my mom.
KAYLA: Mom, okay, well.
SARAH: And then the week after, I'm going to be networking.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: He he he!
KAYLA: Boss lady, business bitch.
SARAH: Boss lady! Anyway, this doesn't matter to any of our listeners.
KAYLA: It should.
SARAH: Yeah, you heard it here. Kayla?
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: What are we talking about this week?
KAYLA: This week, and I'm surprised we've never done an episode on this, I did look it up, I know we've talked about it in passing before, but this week we're talking about being aspec at work.
SARAH: Yes. Which we must be if we are aspec and employed.
KAYLA: Right, we are both aspecs at work.
SARAH: Yeah, right now.
KAYLA: Well, I mean, I'm not working today.
SARAH: Speak for yourself.
KAYLA: The dean gave us the day off. Not the Dean, my fiancé…
SARAH: Not StepDean, boss dean
KAYLA: The dean who is the boss. It's truly so confusing because we work at a school, everyone is a dean of something. Like all the department heads, you're not like a chief, everyone is a dean of blah, blah, blah.
SARAH: You're a dean of Kayla.
KAYLA: I'm a dean of Kayla, that's interesting. Or am I the dean of Dean?
SARAH: A great question. Who’s the dean of Kayla?
KAYLA: Who wears the dean? Who is the… It's like who wears the pants? Who's the dean in the relationship?
SARAH: Who is the dean in the relationship?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Anyway. What? Wait, so what are we talking about this week?
KAYLA: We're talking about being aspec at work, lock in.
SARAH: Lock in. Lock in.
KAYLA: So, part of the reason I thought about this is because last week when we were trying to figure out what the F to talk about…
SARAH: Now you're censoring yourself?
KAYLA: What the F? Yeah, this is actually going to be a clean episode.
SARAH: I already said fuck.
KAYLA: Fuck. Okay, I was on Google Scholar which is where you look up publications and such.
SARAH: If you're a dean.
KAYLA: Yeah, I guess you could use it if you were a dean, I don't know, I was using it for my paper, for my class.
SARAH: She's a student.
KAYLA: She's a student, just for a little bit longer. Anyway. I found an article by… I'm not going to say all those names; it's like five people. You can look it up though, it's open-source which is rare and fun, so you could read this whole dang thing for free.
SARAH: How can they find it if you don't tell them what it's called?
KAYLA: I'm about to.
SARAH: Okay
KAYLA: I'm just not going to say the authors because it's too many.
SARAH: Because you hate crediting artists for their work.
KAYLA: Yep, famously. The article is called ‘Benevolent Intentions Toward a New Coworker Depend on the Coworker's Sexual Orientation and Relationship Status.’ Okay?
SARAH: Let me tell you something about the word benevolent.
KAYLA: Right
SARAH: I know what it means but I always doubt myself. And so, every time I have to look it up just to double check.
KAYLA: Do you get it confused with malevolent?
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: Yeah, that’s fair
SARAH: Malevolent is like, eh, right?
KAYLA: Evil. I think it's evil.
SARAH: Is it evil or is it just like, eh?
KAYLA: No, I think it's evil.
SARAH: I mean Maleficent.
KAYLA: I think it's like a witch, when I think of it, I think of like a stinky witch.
SARAH: No, it's evil.
KAYLA: Yeah. And benevolent is like nice.
SARAH: Nice, nice feelings.
KAYLA: Good. So basically, in this study, the basis of the study was that they were positing that people who are single or asexual may face social disapproval, including discrimination because of their…
SARAH: Wait, that was what this actual study was?
KAYLA: Yeah, I'll read you… how about I read you the abstract which is just like a brief of the entire…
SARAH: Hit me with it.
KAYLA: We won't have to read the entire study, I'll just read you this and it gives you all you need to know.
SARAH: Oh, fuck it up, I'm ready.
KAYLA: Okay. Are you gonna listen?
SARAH: I'm listening so hard.
KAYLA: Okay, we've already had listening issues today, everyone. I know you can't believe that.
SARAH: It's because I got an email from work.
KAYLA: Right. Okay. “In Europe, allonormative beliefs are common,” booo!
SARAH: Yicks
KAYLA: “These beliefs assume that all people desire sexual activity with others,” close. Okay, individuals… Good effort. “Individuals who are single or asexual differ from these norms and may face social disapproval including discrimination. The present study investigates whether individual’s benevolent intentions and behaviors towards a new co-worker vary depending on the co-worker's sexual orientation, specifically being asexual, and relationship status, specifically being single. A total of 1,028 participants (50% cis women and 50% cis men, 78% heterosexual, 22% sexual-minority, mean age 29.2 years, standard deviation 8.8.)” Huge.
SARAH: 8.8, I don't know what that means in this context. Is that standard deviation for ages?
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Ah, okay.
KAYLA: “Living in German-speaking countries…”
SARAH: Hallo!
KAYLA: “Found in Europe each read one of 18 fictional scenarios describing the introduction of a new co-worker. The scenarios varied by the co-worker's gender, sexual orientation, and relationship status. After reading the scenario, participants indicated how likely they would be to share information with, befriend, gossip about, or show interest in supporting the co-worker's success. A multi-variant analysis of co-variants,” so fun, “was conducted while controlling for participants’ allonormative beliefs, age, relationship status, nationality, sexual orientation education, and occupation.”
SARAH: Is there an option for you saw them making out with their partner in the street because this is Germany and people do that for some reason?
KAYLA: I can't say that I'm sure about that.
SARAH: Okay
KAYLA: “The results showed that female participants were less likely to share knowledge with a person who was single by circumstance than a person in a relationship. Male participants were more likely to befriend a single by choice gay man than a gay man who was in a relationship. These findings highlight bias against single individuals in workplace-related contexts. The results can help raise awareness for subtle prejudices based on sexual orientation and relationship status. Recognizing these biases is an important first step in developing interventions to reduce discrimination in the workplace.” Period.
SARAH: Okay, first of all, tea that that was actually about aspec stuff.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like, I thought that it was just about...
KAYLA: There is… from my brief search of ace and aro stuff on Google Scholar, there is definitely a lot more research in the last couple of years than there were when we were in college, which is great.
SARAH: Great. Hell yeah! I love that for the class. See, the interesting thing is when you first said that, I was thinking less about singleness and more about the interplay of gender dynamics, because I was like, all other things being equal. If I meet a co-worker who is, especially if they're around my age, but honestly any age, if they're a man, and I don't know anything about them, but I know that they are in a long-term relationship, I might be more open or trusting of them. I don't view them of as much of a threat to me, because I know they're in a long-term relationship. Now they still could very well be a threat. And a single man could be not a threat, but...
KAYLA: I think that's actually something that they found in this study. I read through the results, and now I'm trying to find where I read that.
[00:10:00]
SARAH: I also think... I don't think I would necessarily have this experience, or I like to think that I wouldn't, but I think there's a certain strain of toxic, whether consciously or subconsciously toxic woman who would feel the same way about a woman, where if they are in a relationship, they don't view them as a threat to their relationship or their potential relationship.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: But I think it's probably more prevalent with men just because it's more of a physical, bodily safety threat rather than a social thing.
KAYLA: Yeah. Along those lines, in this study, women were more likely to befriend a sexual minority man than a heterosexual man.
SARAH: Absolutely, yes.
KAYLA: And they said that the finding was consistent with prior research, which showed that women felt more comfortable around gay men and have friendships with them, and trust them more, and perceive them as less likely to engage in sexually and competitively motivated deception, which I think is the same kind of root safety cause that you're talking about a gay man and a man in a relationship, one would hope, are less… there is a less threat of sexual advances or romantic advances. One would hope.
SARAH: One would hope.
KAYLA: Women also had stronger motives to befriend asexual men than heterosexual men, so that minority moved to asexual men as well, which makes sense.
SARAH: I also think in the context of a workplace, it might be different if it were outside of a workplace, but because a workplace is like… you don't go to work to meet a partner, you know? Like, you might meet a partner at work, but that's not why you go to work, you go to work because we live in a capitalist society and you need money.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Or maybe you have a strong, strong passion for scanning books at the bookstore, I don't know. But because in a work setting you are not expecting anyone to come on to you, if they do, it does… especially if it's unwelcome, it feels a lot more threatening than it would if you were at a bar.
KAYLA: Yeah, 100%. I mean, why do you think we do so much training?
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: I mean, you work in a silly place without HR, but for those of us…
SARAH: I've never had a job with an HR department.
KAYLA: Yeah. For those of us who have robust HR departments, you have to do like yearly training on like not sexually assaulting people at work, which is so crazy that we can't all just know that. But what do you think of heterosexual men being more likely to be friends with a gay man in a relationship than a single gay man? The study has some thoughts on why, but…
SARAH: I think it comes from… it's the same thing, but coming from a place of homophobia. It's the same thing as women, because they feel that a gay man in a relationship will not come on to them.
KAYLA: No, no, no. You have it… straight men are more likely to be… oh, no, no, no, I see what you mean, continue.
SARAH: Yes. So, it's in the same way that women are more likely to trust a straight man in a relationship, because they think that a single straight man is more likely to come on to them. A straight man for some reason thinks that every gay man is going to come on to him, which in that outfit, bitch, no. But… like, wash your hair.
KAYLA: In your Patagonia zip-up? I think not.
SARAH: You're fucking chopped, dude. But, like, if in some, like, weird caveman part of their brain, they think that a gay man is going to come on to them, so if a gay man is in a relationship, they're less of a threat of that happening.
KAYLA: Wait, now I'm getting confused about which one they're more likely to be friends with.
SARAH: Read it again.
KAYLA: Male participants were more likely to befriend a single gay man than one in a relationship.
SARAH: Oh, so that's backwards.
KAYLA: Yes. So, they are saying that… their potential explanation is that single gay men might display fewer public expressions of same-gender affection than gay men in relationships.
SARAH: Mm, they don't look as gay.
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: Which is crazy, because if you're a gay man trying to attract another gay man, which you don't always necessarily have to be at all times trying to attract a gay man, but like if you don't look gay and you want a relationship, it's going to be harder to find a relationship because people aren't going to clock you as gay.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Are they saying… well, no, we have to remember this is Germany, okay.
KAYLA: One must remember that this is Germany.
SARAH: We have to remember. Listen, I don't know how Germany compares to other countries in Europe or elsewhere, but my American ass in Germany, I got so fucking annoyed at the constant PDA. I was like, I'm sorry, you're German. Like, you can't cross the street if the Ampelmann isn't green. But you have… like, you're fondling your girlfriend's ass on the sidewalk on a Saturday afternoon? I don't understand.
KAYLA: I don't like the word fondling. Well, and I think because we've had this exact discussion of the podcast like three weeks ago.
SARAH: We've also probably had this conversation like 14 times, but continue
KAYLA: Yeah. But I remember someone, I think someone in Discord said that they wondered if part of the reason for it was a display of straightness; which seems consistent with stuff from this study.
SARAH: And I mean, if you are a gay man in a relationship with a gay man and you're comfortable with PDA, then yeah, you will be showing it more and you will be visibly gay.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Also, we have to consider that straight men have bad gaydar.
KAYLA: True. That's just they might not know that they're befriending...
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: No, but in the scenarios, because you also have to remember the study was based on people reading a story on a piece of paper and being like, “okay, how would I interact with this person?” So, it's like, you know, it's not going to be completely accurate.
SARAH: Yeah. Because I feel like straight men, if someone is like super effeminate, super what's the word? Flamboyant, they're going to be like, “okay, that's a gay man.” And sometimes they'll see a man who is not even gay, but displays certain like, oh, his nails are painted, therefore he must be gay.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But I feel like the more subtle cues that someone is queer, straight men are probably the worst at picking up of any other group.
KAYLA: Yeah, I would have to imagine so. The last thing that I'll kind of pull from this study is, so, they were talking about why it was shown that women were more likely to like have this prejudice against single people in the workplace and their thoughts are that… they say “previous research has shown that women experience stronger social pressure than men do to enter and maintain committed relationships so as a result, women may be more likely than men to hold these stereotypes about single individuals.” And so, they'd be more inclined to believe stereotypes like, oh, single people are like cold or untrustworthy or something is wrong with them, whatever.
SARAH: I also feel like if we're operating exclusively on stereotypes, men would be like, oh, you're… like to another man, would be like, “oh, you're single, you're unattached, cool, you're not chained down by a woman.”
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Whereas for women, it would be the exact opposite where it's like, “how come you don't have a partner? You're 32,” you know?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Again, that's all very stereotypical one-track thinking, but if we're drawing conclusions, then...
KAYLA: The other interesting thing to me that they did in this study, it mentioned in the big thing I read that they took people's like age and their occupation and things like that into account when they were like, you know, looking at this stuff. They also had people do a subscale of negative stereotyping of single persons’ scale. They had people like take a little test to see, like to rate their allonormative beliefs, to see if that like...
SARAH: To check how tinted their glasses are.
KAYLA: Truly, but like that's interesting that they're like testing for that.
SARAH: They considered a lot of factors.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: That's tea. I think for me coming from… because I mean this is all… like, well, I guess they did test sexual minorities, but like presumably most of the people who were tested were allo. Right?
KAYLA: Let me see if it says...
SARAH: Because it said it was 78% straight.
KAYLA: Okay, yeah.
SARAH: 22% sexual minority, but of the sexual minorities, do you know how much was aspec?
KAYLA: They didn't say, it just says sexual minority and then… yeah, they break it down by the participants' sexual orientation, relationship status, nationality, education, employment, gender, which they only did man and woman. Boo! Oh, sorry, character’s gender. So, in the scenarios they had people read, the characters in the fake scenarios were either men or women, single by circumstance, single by choice in a relationship, and then heterosexual, gay, asexual.
SARAH: Okay. Interesting.
KAYLA: Interesting
SARAH: I think for me, personally, as an aspec person looking at this, like my own experiences, I probably would feel more benevolent feelings towards a straight man if he were in a relationship, because that just feels safer. However, to me, for a woman, if they're in a relationship and it's with a man, I'm like, “damn, you're straight.” But if they're single, unless they give off really straight vibes, I'm like, “oh, you could be queer.” Now, a woman could be queer and be in a relationship with a man, this is true.
KAYLA: Hello!
SARAH: Exactly. But in terms of broad conclusions, if a woman is single, I'm more likely to be like, “oh, so what's your deal? What are you? Are you queer? Are you a queer one?”
[00:20:00]
KAYLA: I see. Are you a queer one? Interesting.
SARAH: Whereas if they're in a relationship with a man, there's a much higher chance that they're not queer.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And then if they're obviously queer, I don't give a fuck whether they're in a relationship or not. I'm like, “heyyyyyy.”
KAYLA: As long as you're queer, whatever, man.
SARAH: Exactly.
KAYLA: Okay, I'm just going to read out some quick other results from this that I'm finding.
SARAH: Hit me.
KAYLA: Female participants were more willing to befriend asexual characters than hetero ones.
SARAH: So female participants were more likely to befriend asexual characters than female participants were to befriend hetero characters?
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: Interesting
KAYLA: Specifically, they reported higher friendship intentions for gay and asexual male characters than hetero ones, which we already kind of talked about that.
SARAH: Yeah. Especially since the context is friendship, like you're working together, you're not trying to pick up a husband.
KAYLA: Their one major hypothesis that participants don't intend to share knowledge with single people than people with relationships, that was supported in women in this study. So, they found that women intended to share information with people in relationships more than single people.
SARAH: When we say intended to share information, are we talking about like personal information about yourself or?
KAYLA: I'm not sure if that's...
SARAH: Gossip? Tea? Like what does that mean?
KAYLA: Yeah, let me look at how they quantify that, intention to share helpful knowledge. So, I'm getting like how to do stuff at work.
SARAH: Like help you essentially?
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Okay. So, say what the conclusion was?
KAYLA: So, women are more likely to share knowledge with someone that is in a relationship than a single person.
SARAH: Interesting.
KAYLA: However, what they did not expect to find, but did, is that some asexual characters in the scenarios were treated more favorably by some participants than the hetero characters. So again, like we were talking about women being more drawn to sexual minority men specifically. They said, namely, mostly female participants were more likely to share knowledge, befriend, and have other interests in sexual minority men than in heterosexual men.
SARAH: Yeah, that makes sense to me.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: So, if you're a man and you want to befriend women at work, don't be straight.
KAYLA: Don't be straight. Sorry. Which I think that's consistent with stuff we've talked about on the show before is like I think asexual and aromantic men feel more trustworthy to women.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Like, there's less of a threat feeling there.
SARAH: And I think… do you think… this is just complete conjecture, do you think that on average people would feel the same about gay men as asexual men, or do you think they would trust asexual men more?
KAYLA: For me, that's really hard because I think in some there are a subset of gay men who are very misogynistic and view women as objects, not as sexual objects, but almost as like...
SARAH: Entertainment?
KAYLA: Entertainment, like dolls.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: We were talking about this last week or the week before, the divafication of like… whatever.
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: I've heard stories of gay men being even very overly touchy and like crossing…
SARAH: Yes, too comfortable
KAYLA: Too comfortable with female friends, and they're like, “oh no, but it's fine that I'm touching you this way because I'm gay.” And it’s like, well…
SARAH: It’s like, but I don't want you to do that, so fucking stop.
KAYLA: Right. But again, it's obviously not all gay men, there's going to be bad eggs in any group of people.
SARAH: I feel, because my instinct was to say, okay, people might trust asexual men more, just because of that.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But then I was thinking more about it, and I think there is definitely an inclination to… with gay men, you have proof they're into other men, so you can't prove that they're not into women necessarily, but you feel like you have more concrete evidence.
KAYLA: Sure
SARAH: Whereas for asexual men, if they do not participate in sex, it's again, the absence of something. Like, you don't have this, he fucks men, therefore he's safe. You could just be like, well, he hasn't fucked men, and he hasn't fucked women, who knows? And like that is aphobic at its core, but I could see some people having that reaction.
KAYLA: Yeah, that’s fair. I also wonder if the incel stereotypes about aspec men would also impact levels of trust.
SARAH: Yeah. I mean, the difference between, if you say ace versus incel, two completely opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of my reaction to that.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: So, interesting. What did you want to talk about to follow up to this? There was another thing.
KAYLA: Well, okay, yes. Obviously, a very interesting study. They didn't have… I mean, they had some thoughts on why this would happen, right? About women are more pressured to be in relationships, so they'd hold these stereotypes more closely, blah, blah, whatever. But I was also thinking about what this study made me think about is part of the trouble with people not trusting single people in the workplace is that they just don't have enough to talk to them about. I think there is a level of small talk that happens at work that helps build that personal trust. Like, outside of talking about work things, like talking about life things at work helps you build credibility in relationships. And if you aren't in a relationship, if you don't have kids, that takes away some base level small talk.
SARAH: Or if you're just not dating in general.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: I feel like telling someone about a horrible date you've been on, if it's really bad, then you might be willing to tell anyone, depending on your personality.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But if you know someone a little bit better, you might be willing to talk to them about your dating life. But if you don't have a dating life, that's next step, a little deeper than small talk, but still.
KAYLA: Yeah. So, that was kind of my thought after that, was specifically thinking about aro people, because I would hope that we're not talking about sex at work as much as we're talking about romance.
SARAH: Right, about romance
KAYLA: So, thinking specifically about aro people, or aspecs that don't date, I feel like that could make that small talk and that first level of intimacy at work much more difficult and then that is going to lead down the line to just like, it's harder to build relationships and trust with people.
SARAH: It makes it much more difficult, and in a lot of cases, it forces you to either come out, or further alienate yourself. Because if I'm making small talk with someone, and they're like, “oh, do you have a boyfriend?” And I'm like, “no.” And they're like, “oh, are you dating?” And I'm like, “no.” And then the next question is, “why?”
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And like they don't necessarily mean anything bad by it. But I usually am just like, oh, I'm just not interested. And they're like, sometimes I'm just not interested right now, sometimes I'm just like, whatever. And sometimes they'll leave it at that, sometimes they'll push. But there's a situation where if they push too much, you're kind of forced into a situation where you either have to lie, you have to explain that you're aspec or you have to kind of just say bullshit until you can get them to stop. And then that puts you in a situation where either you've been forced to come out, which you don't know what their reaction is going to be, or you're just further alienated because they have an even deeper understanding of the fact that they don't have the whole dating relationship thing in common with you. And they don't understand why you're not into it, because everyone's into it, right? So, it's either a forced coming out or a further alienation or maybe both.
KAYLA: Yeah. Do you… like, how much has that impacted your work?
SARAH: I think I'm in a bit of an interesting situation because I am kind of forced to come out because of the podcast and because of my book. And because of in the context of my work, the book does come up, I mean, my boss brings it up constantly.
KAYLA: Your boss is obsessed with our book.
SARAH: But because even in the context of furthering my career outside of my current job, like, I want to write long-term. And so, if you have a published book, you're going to tell people that, like it's going to be in your fucking bio.
KAYLA: Yeah, it needs to come up.
SARAH: Right. So, I'm kind of forced to come out in that context. I usually don't elaborate at all, if they have questions, they have questions. But usually people are like, “oh, I'm not going to…” because they're like, they don't understand it. And they're like, “I just met you. I'm not going to dive deep on that.”
KAYLA: Yeah. When you bring up the podcast or book at work or like other places and someone asks you what it's about, what do you say?
SARAH: I say we talk about love and relationships from the perspective of asexuality and aromanticism.
KAYLA: Oh, you're much braver than I.
SARAH: What do you say?
KAYLA: I just say it's about gender and sexuality usually because I'm like I simply cannot get into asexuality or aromanticism with you people.
[00:30:00]
SARAH: Interesting.
KAYLA: I just like… it's hard to know where people are at with that.
SARAH: Yeah. I think it might also be different in my industry.
KAYLA: Yeah. I mean, that's the other thing is… like, I brought it up in class the other day, the class we were talking about last week, like entrepreneurship. So, people were sharing like side hustles they did and their experience with that. So, I brought up the podcast and the book and then everyone in the chat was like, “Share, what's it about?” blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I don't know you people, like there are some people in this class that like say things sometimes that I'm like, I don't think you're vibing with what I'm vibing with.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: So, I was like, I'm not trying to like, you know?
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: So, I was like, oh, gender and sexuality, you know, like…
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: And if you feel comfortable with that and that's your vibe and you want to dig deeper into it, like slay, but…
SARAH: If you really want to know, google my name.
KAYLA: Right. So especially in like work or school settings, I don't really get that into it because I just don't know what people's reaction is going to be and I'm like, I can't...
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: I think that I am more afraid of the like rejection, I think, of them like seeing that and then being like, “oh, you're fucking weird,” or like, you know, that kind of thing.
SARAH: Yeah. I think for me, working in entertainment, there is absolutely homophobia and transphobia and certainly aphobia in the entertainment industry, but it's taboo to do it openly.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And so, you know, even if someone does… like, I assume that everyone I'm talking to is like chill with gay people and if they're not chill with gay people, they pretend to be.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: So, like that's kind of the baseline I have going in because I work in entertainment.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: In another industry, I probably would maybe not be so forthcoming.
KAYLA: Yeah, I think it has changed depending on where I work too. I think where I work now, I'm just a lot more careful about my personal information and just like the way I talk about anything. Just because it's more of like an institution, I think like everyone is like that. I also work with a lot more… a bigger diversity of people now. When I worked at a smaller tech company, like it felt like everyone was kind of leaning in the same way about beliefs, at least the people I like talk to at work. But now, A, working in person, I see everybody, no matter if I want to see them or not.
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: And then it's just a huge institution so there's people all across all types of spectrums. And word travels really fast, like reputations, like gossip, that kind of stuff, it runs really deep. And so, the fear of like, okay, if I say something and then people are like oh, she's leaning really far this way or whatever, you know
SARAH: Yeah. I certainly play that game with not very many, but a couple like political things I play that game with. You can kind of assume that everyone's pretty liberal in Hollywood. But they're LA liberal, so.
KAYLA: I mean, that's the thing, there's definitely people at work that I am way more open with and I'm closer to and they know a lot more about me, they follow me on Instagram, some of my coworkers have like read my book, whatever. There are some that I'm much more open with, but baseline, if I don't know someone that well at work, I'm not going to get super into it because I'm like, “you don't know me, so.” It's also like, we talk about very personal things on this podcast, so it's like, do you need to have access to that kind of information about me?
SARAH: I imagine that's worse for you than it is for me because the way my identity is, it's a lot more black-and-white.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Whereas like you saying things like people could draw conclusions about your relationship and draw conclusions about your partner and like that sort of thing.
KAYLA: Yeah, that is also an aspect I think a lot about, not even just at work, but because I'm in a relationship, I know if I tell someone I'm aspec, they are immediately going to have thoughts about what my relationship looks like.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And I… you know, that's not going to impact my relationship, obviously, I'm very happy in my relationship. But that's also not something that I want to put on Dean necessarily.
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: Because he didn't ask for people to be speculating about our relationship like that. So, I think that makes it more complicated too. People at work, they know I'm engaged, they know I'm in a long-term relationship, and then if you drop something like that on it, that's just going to invite a lot more…
SARAH: Get confused
KAYLA: Yeah, that’s just going to invite more confusion, because people just don't understand.
SARAH: I think for me as well, in terms of saying what the podcast in the book is, saying it's from the perspective of asexuality and aromanticism, it's not completely saying, “oh, I am that.”
KAYLA: That’s true
SARAH: It's kind of implying it. But if they come to that conclusion, that's them making the leap, not me telling them.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But I think also for me, their assumptions about asexuality and aromanticism, whatever they may be, in my case, are probably true.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And so, if I am a little bit more forthcoming, if they make assumptions, I have less concern that they are misconstruing me and misunderstanding me because I am a stereotype.
KAYLA: Yeah, no, that's fair. I think that is definitely part of it for me is if they were to just look these things up, then they would have very specific ideas of what's going on in my life. And are those things bad that they assume? Obviously not. But they're just not true about me. And so, then it's like, well, you have a different version of who I am in your head.
SARAH: And you don't want to be misrepresenting yourself by omission.
KAYLA: Right, exactly.
SARAH: In terms of… like, you not being open about being what the details of the podcast or whatever, that is… you're omitting information, but it's not misrepresentation.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: It's just not giving further detail. But if you let someone believe something that is not necessarily true, then that is misrepresentation by omission. And then you feel like you have to go into more detail and say, “I don't fucking know you, I don't need to TED-talk you.”
KAYLA: Yeah. I also think I am much more likely and have been much more open at work about being queer and being bi than being demi.
SARAH: Mm, interesting
KAYLA: Because when you get into the deminess, now we're talking about my sex life specifically.
SARAH: Right, yeah
KAYLA: And like I'm not doing that with you at work.
SARAH: Right, this is a workplace.
KAYLA: This is a workplace. But saying that I'm bi or queer, that's a much more blanket kind of like whatever.
SARAH: Overarching
KAYLA: And I don't have to explain that, people know what that means. So, I think it's… if I had… if my aspecness came into my romantic identity more, maybe it would be a bit easier, but because it's tied to my sexuality, it's like, “well, I don't want to get into it with you about what my sexual relationships look like.”
SARAH: Yeah, like I don't want to talk about that with like Stan from IT.
KAYLA: No, right. Like, that's just not your business.
SARAH: Yeah. And I think… I know you've mentioned your job being more of an institution, I think me being more open about stuff is also just because my companies have all been much smaller and much more personal by nature.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And so, if I were to just like withhold all of this information, then I would just be like weird and cagey.
KAYLA: Yeah, no, that's fair. I mean, it's… yeah, on smaller teams where you talk about a lot more, I think it's harder. Like the workplaces where I've been more open with more people is when it has been smaller and like I knew people better.
SARAH: Like I was open about being aspec at my workplace years before I was open about being a K-pop fan.
KAYLA: Huh, that's interesting, that's kind of a lot to unpack there, I do think.
SARAH: Well, they knew it when I interviewed because my book was on my resume.
KAYLA: Right. Oh, that's yeah, that's kind of right.
SARAH: And then they read the book. So, like, I didn't even really have to tell them a lot.
KAYLA: Yeah. And that’s the thing is like, the book and the podcast are on my resume, but it's also not like all of my co-workers are looking at that. But it's also on my LinkedIn. So, like if you have… I have people at work all the time that will like add me on LinkedIn, and then I'm like, “well, if you dug enough, you could find whatever you want.” You could find literally all of the information about me back from when I was like 20, so.
SARAH: When I was first employed as the fourth person at my company, I know for a fact every single one of them read my resume because every single one of them interviewed me, so.
KAYLA: Well, yeah, that'll happen, that will happen.
SARAH: So here we are.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And the book wasn't even out yet.
KAYLA: That's crazy.
SARAH: Yeah. It's like a year before the book came out.
KAYLA: When I was on Google Scholar, I looked up, at least my name, your name is too generic, anyone could be citing it
SARAH: Too common
KAYLA: But I looked up my name and people were citing our book in their research, so
SARAH: Hell yeah.
KAYLA: Slay
SARAH: Love that for the class. Is there anything else you would like to add?
KAYLA: I mean, I think there's a lot more that we could discuss along these veins, but that can be for a later time.
SARAH: Another episode.
KAYLA: Another time.
SARAH: Another time. For the poll this week, I am very curious about people's experience in the workplace as aspecs.
KAYLA: Yeah.
[00:40:00]
SARAH: Two things; one, whether you trust or you're more benevolent in the workplace towards whatever groups, but also what your perception of other people in your workplaces is and how they react to people of different identities and then also I'm very curious about what people's experiences have been being out or not out at work.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And in addition to what that experience has been, like what type of workplace and what type of industry you're in. Obviously, I mean, you don't have to be like, “I work at xyz industries at 1022 Industry Road.”
KAYLA: Apple.com. Yeah
SARAH: We don't need that information. Although if you want to give it to us, actually don't, because other people will be able to see it.
KAYLA: Well, I know where one of our listeners works at specifically, it's that one zoo.
SARAH: That's true.
KAYLA: Do I remember which zoo? Apparently not. I could find out if I looked, but, I know where you work.
SARAH: It’s a zoo though, yes. But I'm curious to know, like, you know, if you work in… I feel like if you work in construction, you're probably not… but maybe you have like really cool fucking dudes that you work with in construction, I don't know.
KAYLA: Who’s to say?
SARAH: But I am really curious about location, industry and size slash type of your employer.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Very curious. Anyone who is self-employed, how does your boss feel?
KAYLA: Mm
SARAH: Yes. Okay. Kayla, what is your beef and your juice for this week?
KAYLA: My beef is that the climate of my home…
SARAH: The clime
KAYLA: Is so fucked up. We didn't have heat, like our heat hasn't been working the best, like it was on and then it was off and then whatever. Like we were having a lot of problems with the heat.
SARAH: Yeah, last week you said it was very hot.
KAYLA: Right. And so that is… so, the heat is like back working, the problem is we have old steam radiators in our building and we have no control of them, we don't have a thermostat. I don't actually know, I looked around the building today, I don't know that there's a thermostat in the building.
SARAH: Kayla, I'm going to be so real with you right now.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: This was your beef last week.
KAYLA: Okay, well I have more. I have more.
SARAH: Okay, expand.
KAYLA: Well, just the beef is that the other day it was so hot in our apartment, the radiators were on and just were on and they wouldn't stop. They were like burning, like if I put my hand on them my hand would get burnt.
SARAH: Great.
KAYLA: That we had all of our windows open.
SARAH: You talked about that last week.
KAYLA: And the fan going.
SARAH: Okay, that's a new detail.
KAYLA: Into the house. And then I was on the internet looking up like, what the fuck am I supposed to do? And the good people of Brookline read it, and were like, “welcome to living in Brookline, this is what everyone has. Welcome to your…”
SARAH: Brookline?
KAYLA: Well, that's actually a place in Boston, but different.
SARAH: But you don't live there.
KAYLA: I don't live there.
SARAH: Is it pronounced Brookline? Is that how you say it?
KAYLA: Mm-hmm. There's a bookstore called Brookline Booksmith or something like that, I don't think I've ever been there. And so, there was all these tips about things to do. So, the new thing in my house is 100% cotton blankets over my radiators at all times.
SARAH: Oh, and they don't burn?
KAYLA: If it's synthetic, it will melt, but steam radiators allegedly only get as hot as boiling water and that's not hot enough to burn cotton or wool on fire. But I'll tell you what, it smells musty in my house because we're just heating up old ass blankets.
SARAH: Heating blankets
KAYLA: I have them in the wash today because the heat turned on and I was like it smells like an attic in here, it smells fucking crazy, whatever. That's going to be my beef every week for the rest of the winter, I don't give a fuck.
SARAH: Great.
KAYLA: My juice is that…
SARAH: I'm excited for your juice, you said it was big.
KAYLA: Okay. I'm so delighted to share that a… I'm not trying to dox myself, so a smoothie restaurant opened…
SARAH: A smoothie restaurant!?
KAYLA: You know, like a smoothie place, opened a convenient distance from where I live, I will not tell you how far because then… I don't want you to find my radius of where I'm living, a convenient location for me. I've known that it was opening for like a year and I've been waiting, I've been so excited because I love a smoothie and I hate to make one and I love to go buy an overpriced smoothie, I just love it. So, I've been waiting. They opened a couple of weeks ago and we were in… I was doing my homework in there one day and the lady gave us a bunch of coupons and she was like we're having an opening, like grand opening event over the weekend where the first 50 people in line or like first 50 customers that day get free smoothies for a year.
SARAH: Ooh
KAYLA: One free smoothie a week for a year; 52 free smoothies. And so, we said, “bet.”
SARAH: “Bet.”
KAYLA: So last Friday my friends slept over at my house.
SARAH: Is that why people were sleeping at your house?
KAYLA: Yes. They slept over at my house on Friday night, we watched ‘Physical: Asia,’ an excellent program, you should all watch and then we got up at 5 a.m.
SARAH: Oh my God
KAYLA: And then we drove to the parking lot and we sat there and we waited for like half an hour until there was other people there. So, we were like, “okay, it's time to get out.” And so, us and all these other people set up little chairs and blankets, we were playing cards and we sat there until…
SARAH: You were fucking camping for fucking smoothies!?
KAYLA: And the line was long, like it was over 50-people-long by the time the place opened.
SARAH: Oh my God
KAYLA: So, like you had to camp early
SARAH: What time did they open?
KAYLA: They opened at 8.
SARAH: Okay
KAYLA: So, we sat there until 8. And bitch, this is my first, I just finished it, but this was my first free smoothie of the year.
SARAH: Oh my God! What number were you?
KAYLA: We were… so, we could have been number one because we were the first ones there but we sat in the car for a little bit because we were like, we don't need to like be in line the whole time. So, we were… like, I was maybe like five or six in line.
SARAH: Incredible.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: I love that for you. You camp for your engagement ring, you camp for your smoothies…
KAYLA: But here's the thing, why the fuck not? You know? We had so much fun, everyone in that line was fucking jazzed, everyone was so nice, everyone was so excited to be there, like it was such a fun time.
SARAH: Yeah, these were some smoothie fucking enthusiasts.
KAYLA: It's like… these smoothies are like $10.
SARAH: Yeah, they're not cheap.
KAYLA: I just received like $500.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Girl math.
SARAH: Girl math.
KAYLA: I just received $500.
SARAH: For free.
KAYLA: For free.
SARAH: For free.
KAYLA: So, I am extremely enthusiastic about this. And Dean didn't go, by the way.
SARAH: Wow. He can't get free smoothies.
KAYLA: He was like it wasn't worth it, to me I don't like smoothies that much. And I said, “well, I could have your free smoothie, I could get two a week.”
SARAH: Mm
KAYLA: And he was like, “there's no way you're drinking 104 smoothies in a year.” And I said, “hello?” Two smoothies a week is not fucking crazy.
SARAH: That's not that much. Some people drink smoothies every day.
KAYLA: That's what I'm saying, he wouldn't come, but other people came, so
SARAH: Damn. Wow! What a life you lead. I've never had a smoothie.
KAYLA: Yeah, that seems about right for you.
SARAH: Yeah. My beef is the sheer number of pimple patches on my face right now. My skin has been fucked up for weeks. And you can't really see it on this zoom call, but my skin has been fucked. And it makes me suffer and cry. My other beef is that starting tomorrow I can't take my allergy medicine because I have to not take it for five days ahead of my skin prick tests and they gave me a steroid, they gave me steroids to take if I get really itchy, but I can't take them until three days before. So, there's a two-day period on Thanksgiving where I'm going to be off my allergy meds and I can't take the steroids yet and I really hope I'm not super-itchy.
KAYLA: I think you're just going to have to live in an oatmeal bath, like, just…
SARAH: I'm allergic to cultivated oat.
KAYLA: That fucking sucks.
SARAH: According to my blood tests, the first one. We'll get more detail.
KAYLA: Damn
SARAH: No.
KAYLA: Well.
SARAH: My first blood test did indeed say that there's a high likelihood that I'm allergic to cultivated oat. But I do use Aveeno lotion and it is made of oats, so.
KAYLA: Well. It is made of oats. Maybe that's why you're so itchy because every time you're itchy you're putting lotion that you're allergic to.
SARAH: My juice, I guess the only juice I can think of, I was telling Kayla earlier I'm reading a book.
KAYLA: Huge.
SARAH: I'm very brave. It's the gay hockey book that they're making into a TV show on Crave and HBO, it's called Heated Rivalry, it's good, it's very smutty.
KAYLA: There's three sexies an episode we hear, which is so wild.
SARAH: It's good. But you have to be prepared for this smut, like E-smut, like prepare yourself for that.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But it's good, it's a silly little time. And I have friends who have read it and have sort of a little book club and they invited me to their little book club on the Fable app which I now have on my phone.
KAYLA: Love that.
SARAH: So that's the tea, that's my juice. Um, youuuuuuu can tell us about your beef, your juice….
KAYLA: Youuuuuuu
SARAH: Whooooooo wanna rock with Jennie?
KAYLA: That's not what I was singing.
SARAH: Yeah, I know, you don't know that song, it's a K-pop song.
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: It's a very well-known K-pop song.
KAYLA: I have to pee, can you wrap it up?
SARAH: Wow. It's 12:54 p.m. and you're still rushing me?
KAYLA: I had a smoothie, I have to pee
[00:50:00]
SARAH: She had a whole fucking smoothie. You can tell me, not Kayla, because she's peeing, about your beef...
KAYLA: I'm not, I'm here, I’m listening
SARAH: Your juice, your workplace dynamics on our social media @soundsfakepod. We also have a Patreon, patreon.com/soundsfakepod. We have a new $2 patron, I think I should have said this person last week but I just missed it because it was in the wrong folder.
KAYLA: On my list of things to do while we're on break is to fix our email because it's so fucked up in there.
SARAH: Oh, what a silly time. Again, we don't know when break is going to be, soon, but not immediately.
KAYLA: Well, I'll be looking at the email so if you want to email us you should do it now because I'm gonna…
SARAH: She'll see it in like two weeks.
KAYLA: I'm gonna see it soon.
SARAH: Our new $2 patron, actually, two euro, is Purple Apple. Thank you, Purple Apple.
KAYLA: Aww, Purple Apple
SARAH: What would a Purple Apple taste like? Would it be like extra sweet? Oh, I've never had a plum.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: See, I say these things to you and you're like, “yeah, that makes sense,” but I'm sure people at home are like, “what the fuck? What do you mean you've never had a smoothie?”
KAYLA: Can you hear the cat rubbing all over my microphone?
SARAH: I can't but I bet your recording can
KAYLA: It does seem like it picked that up, well
SARAH: Cat contribution.
KAYLA: Now, she's rubbing her face on the cactus because she's stupid.
SARAH: Amazing. Can I tell you quickly about… so, I'm in Michigan with my cat Adderall and my parents have a dog, my childhood dog, her name is Sadie. She is 17 and three quarters.
KAYLA: Old!
SARAH: She's very old, she cannot see, she cannot hear. Addie does not do well with other species of animal. But Sadie can't really see Addie so like… or sense her most of the time. So, they can kind of coexist but when they do kind of… yesterday, my mom was like sitting on the floor in my doorway of my bedroom and I was unpacking, I had my suitcase out in the hallway and Sadie came upstairs looking for my mom but because the suitcase was in the way she didn't have a direct route to my mom so she couldn't find my mom. And so, Sadie went into the bathroom to look for my mom and Addie was there and so like Addie kind of stalked her into the bathroom and Sadie goes into the bathroom.
KAYLA: Oh, good
SARAH: It's like a weirdly long bathroom and so she goes down the… and so she's like, “oh look, mom's not in the toilet, I guess I'll turn around and see if I can find her elsewhere,” and Addie is there.
KAYLA: Uh-oh
SARAH: And she perceives Addie and Addie is like stalking her, staring at her. And Sadie is like “hmm, okay. Well, what do I do? I'm stuck.” So, she just turns around and goes back towards the toilet. And Addie is like, “yes! I've done it.” And then a minute later Sadie tries to escape again and Addie is still there and she's like, “okay.” And so, she turns around and goes back towards the toilet. She just keeps getting cornered, I had to forcibly remove Addie from the premises so that Sadie could escape.
KAYLA: Oh, that poor dog.
SARAH: Addie is also a vampire and only goes downstairs when it's dark out.
KAYLA: Oh.
SARAH: Or sometimes in the morning when I'm still asleep, it's weird.
KAYLA: Spooky
SARAH: She's silly. She's a silly little girl and she's sleepy right now. Patrons, our… thank you Purple Apple. Our $5 patrons who we are promoting this week are Colleen Walsh, Danielle Frye, Emily Jean, Galvin Ford, and Green_sarah. Our $10 patrons who are promoting something this week are Danielle Hutchinson who would like to promote Rainbow Pride Knits, Derick & Carissa who would like to promote supporting each other through the transitions we face, Elle Bitter who would like to promote normalizing the use of tone indicators/srs, Eric who would like to promote Queer ASL, and my aunt Jeannie who would like to promote Christopher's Haven, who I will see tomorrow, that's just a fact.
KAYLA: Aunt Jeannie.
SARAH: Aunt Jeannie. Our other $10 patrons are Johanna, Kayla's dad, KELLER bradley, Maff. I bet some people listening think Keller and Bradley are two different people because of the way I say it.
KAYLA: I think I thought that, I think that's what I thought.
SARAH: No, but remember because Keller is in all caps but Bradley is not, that's why I yell Keller but not Bradley, it's Keller Bradley.
KAYLA: I mean, you look at the list, I see people's names like a couple of times but then mostly I just hear them, you're looking at them every day. So, like I don't remember, I thought they were two people.
SARAH: Nope. Maff, not Marf. Martin Chiesl and Purple Hayes. See Maff followed by Martin sometimes it leads to a marf situation. Quartertone, Barefoot Backpacker, SongOStorm, Val, Alastor, Ani, Arcnes, Benjamin Ybarra, and Clare Olsen. Our $15 patrons are Ace who would like to promote the writer Crystal Scherer, Nathaniel White who would like to promote NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com, Kayla’s Aunt Nina who would like to promote katemaggartart.com. Are you going to see Aunt Nina tomorrow?
KAYLA: I think I am actually.
SARAH: Great
KAYLA: We're having like two Thanksgivings.
SARAH: Many aunts.
KAYLA: We’re doing it weird but I think I'm going to see her tomorrow.
SARAH: Many aunts all around. And Schnell who would like to promote accepting that everyone is different and that's awesome. Our $20 patrons are Changeling & Alex who would like to promote their company Control Alt Access. And Dr. Jacki, Dragonfly, my mom, and River who would like to promote that the origins of American Thanksgiving are a fucking myth and that's a bit of a downer.
KAYLA: But you can still eat about it.
SARAH: You can still eat about it, you can still be thankful, just don't be thankful for murder of indigenous people.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: What a bright way to end this podcast.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: Thanks for listening, tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.
KAYLA: And until then, take good care of your cows.
SARAH: Happy Thanksgiving to my American listeners, just mine, not Kayla's. Bye.
[END OF TRANSCRIPT]